Magnus Wheatley interviews Alinghis Brad Butterworth

Photo © Thierry Martinez/Alinghi Team Brad Butterworth on-board Alinghi

MW: So what is dual rigging?
BB: Well normally they have just the one rod that goes out to the D's. The dual rigging has two maybe three rods side by side and that lessens the diameter of the one on the outside.

MW: Has Team New Zealand got these?
BB: Yeah they've got it, they copied Prada and Oracle had a set on their boat as well.

MW: So while you're testing this what's happened to SUI-64?
BB: We put it in the shed and taken everything off it and given it a bit of a massage. We might make a bit of adjustment to the bow of the boat which will hopefully make it a bit quicker. Everyone's copying each othernormal stuff.

MW: So is that something new to 2003 everyone copying each other?
BB: I think people have been copying more this year. Instead of looking at something and discounting it they've gone out to find a little bit more about it because the teams have been sailing in their best configuration all the way through. Plus you can't afford not to do it this time around.

MW: when would you expect to see SUI-64 back in the water?
BB: Well we've taken a few days off so it'll be Tuesday 28th

MW: That's a lot of daysalmost a week? Are you working on the boat?
BB: It's not so much the work on the boat it's that everyone wants a break and is heading out of town. The format allows you to have some time off. I think the rest days are just as important as the race days.

MW: You didn't do that in 1995
BB: No we didn't but the sailing was easy as it was 9-14 knots and it wasn't that physical really.

MW: I've described you guys as the most dangerous afterguard in World sailing. You never looked to be down and out in any of those races and if I were a betting man I'd never bet against you. What is the dynamic between you, Russell, Murray, Jochen, and Simon?
BB: We try to keep the races close when we're behind. If we're leading we don't take too many chances unless it's obvious we can make a gain. When we're behind we try to limit the loss and keep it close up to the mark rounding. So it's just a case of placing the boat in the right position but if the other boat is sailing well, it's hard to close the game up but the boat behind does have some say in what happens especially downwind. Also upwind in this light air you can easily get out of phase and start to sail your own race.

MW: a lot of the guys in the commentary made a big thing of the wind spotters Cameron Dunn (Oracle) and Murray Jones (Alinghi). Between those two it looked like Murray had the edge, was that a key factor to your success?
BB: Well Murray's pretty good at it. I'd say he's the best around. Also he's listening to us talking, we have a great relationship in terms of making a decision and I think that's rare. That sort of chemistry is rare and is something hard to get-it's taken us a while.

MW: From the TV it looks like you guys do all the talking and Russell listensIs that right?
BB: All I'm doing is painting a picture of what he can't see. The boats are hard enough to sail at the right speed all the time so he's got a lot of speed issues that are really taking over his mind. He's also trying to work out where we are, which way we are going etc. So I try to help him prepare for those decisions and try to place the boat on the racecourse. Murray gives me where the wind is coming from whilst Jochen helps with the strategy.

MW: There was an interesting article in The Telegraph today, Russell's article. Reading between the lines what he was saying was that if the Hula touches, you'd be disqualified right? Is there still a question mark still in your mind over the legality of the Hula or are you just not bothered about them and will do your own thing?
BB: No not really, we wanted to find out how the measurers had interpreted the rule. When they were asked about the appendage, they ruled that it was legal, right? But there are no guidelines for the use of it so then we had to ask some questions for our own boats as we had put one on SUI-75. The rule's pretty clear in that if the appendage touches the hull at any time it can be disqualified from the race, if the measurer finds that out to be the case.

MW: Disqualified from the series or just the race?
BB: No just the race.

MW: So how do you use it?
BB: The trade off is that it adds volume to the back of the boat and makes the boat seem longer to the water. The trade off is that there's a gap between the hull and the appendage and you can only affix it within the 500mm centreline of the boat. So what do you make that gap?

MW: Russell says that the gap is just a millimetre, is that right?
BB: I doubt it

MW: So how far away is it on Team New Zealand?
BB: I don't know I've only seen it from over the fence, they wouldn't let me in so I had to look at it through a camera lens. But it looked quite small.

MW: Do you think it'll make that much difference downwind?
BB: Well we don't know. We'd put it on if we actually thought it would be a great advantage to us. But we really haven't had a lot of time to do it and also we haven't designed our boats around it which is what Team New Zealand have done.

MW: So they're designing the boats around it plus they're getting added sail area correct?
BB: Not really no. The sail area is governed by length and weight. They'll be at full weight so the sail area is governed by the length. If they've got a large sail area which they look to have then their boats will be shorter.

MW: But they're able to extend their boats to get maximum waterline length without sacrificing sail area. Maximum sail area and maximum length is that possible?
BB: No not really because you're not allowed to have hollows in the hull between the Aft Girth station and the Forward Girth Station and that's how they measure the boat. The thing is they've added volume into the aft of the boat to make the water think that the boat's longer.

MW: So they could move their aft girth station forward and fill out the gap with the appendage. Correct?
BB: Well I don't think that their physical waterline is any longer or shorter than any of the other boats. It's much more to do with the shape.

MW: When they were under tow today, they carry water all the way out to the transom and downwind they seem to carry it all the way aft whereas your boat would never do that except when heeled upwind. Do you reckon that characteristic is slow or fast?
BB: Well usually the whole boat is fast but I'm pretty sure that all the boats use the whole of the hull. I don't know the physical bow to stern measurement of SUI-64 against their boats but I don't think there'd be much in it.

MW: Is there an issue with the Hula around hull flex? Whenever I've been on these boats there are a whole load of cranks and creaks. Is there a ripple effect when you hit a wave and you get flex further down the hull so that the hull actually touches the Hula and not the other way around? And has TNZ beefed up their internal stern structure to compensate?
BB: Yes I think there's a trade off there. The Hula's not allowed to be structural so they've had to build the boat around it and I would say that that might be one of the disadvantages. The advantage is that the boat might seem longer to the water and therefore might perform better upwind.

MW: Okay so the measurers say it's legal and let's say for instance you don't have one. Would you be quite happy with that or can you protest that measurers decision? Where does the line come where I say it touches and the onus is on the other team to prove it doesn't?
BB: We will never know whether it touches or not. The only way we will ever know is if the measurers see that it has touched in a post race measurement and it's up to them to do something about it, not us.

MW: So will they do something to check it in the first race?
BB: No I think it'll be every race.

MW: So do you think that they (the Measurers) are planning to do something to ensure its validity?
BB: Yes.

MW: So what will they do?
BB: There are many ways-sensors, magnets, leeching paint etc but that's really up to Ken Mcalpine.

MW: The Kiwis look pretty happy does that give you any cause for concern?
BB: No. Good on them really. If they've got a fast boat then that's just part of the problem that we've got to sort out. Good on them if they've come up with a little interpretation of the rules to hit back well that's a smart thing.

MW: So what will be the tactics if you come off the first start line and you are slower? They win race one let's sayWhat will you do in race two? Really try and engage them and put a penalty on?
BB: I don't think we'll treat it any different to how we have done in the past. With each team we try as hard as we can to win the race. If they make a mistake then we try to benefit from it as much as possible. If they get in a position where they foul us well that's just an added bonus.

MW: So do you just stick to the Coutts/Butterworth plan of get the first shift and the first cross, then sort the race out from there or do you have any other game-plan to maybe rough them up a little?
BB: Well we do have other game-plans as every time we race each day is different. But the thing is our boat has got weaknesses and their boat will wind up with weaknesses and those are just there as you can't change your boat. So we'll find those out hopefully pretty quickly and try to lock them in with those weaknesses.

MW: So do you see any weaknesses in Dean Barker?
BB: No not really but I don't know who's going to sail on this boat. There's quite a few new individuals and I don't know half of them and I don't know how far they've progressed as they haven't sailed against anybody in these boats since they had a little regatta here last year with OneWorld.

MW: Will you be using any psychological tactics to intimidate them?
BB: No it's not really that kind of a sport as they can't hear what you're up to on the other boat. Basically we just want to not make any mistakes and to sail as aggressively as we can. At the beginning of the race if you get a small advantage you try to lever that out into a bigger one but I don't really know any of the weaknesses that they've got

MW: Will you be monitoring the tapes of the headset conversations afterwards?
BB: Yes we listen to the tapes and try to learn from the tapes. We're trying to learn what they think is going on and if they're sailing the boat like we are. It gives you a good understanding of the communication between the crew, which side of the course is favoured and also little things that are happening on board that you don't really know or can't understand unless you listen to the tapes.

MW: So do you have people out there watching them practicing?
BB: Not so much practicing, more their boat, sail shapes, trying to work out their length etcI think I've only watched about one video of them in pre-start.

MW: Will you be sticking with the Millennium Rig?
BB: Yes, no change there.

MW: So what's the four-spreader rig on TNZ all about then?
BB: I don't know that's pretty old fashioned. I think Columbus had a four spreader rig didn't he? So I don't know what they've got going onI know they dropped a few rigs early on so maybe they think they need a bit more safety there.

MW: So what do you think of dean Barker in match racing?
BB: Well he can start the boats well, hold it in a straight line pretty well and he did a good job for us last time.

MW: And who's going to be calling tactics for him?
BB: As I say he hasn't named his crew but most probably Hamish Pepper and he's got a good few guys to draw on-Peter Evans

MW: Schnackenberg?
BB: Yeah he might be available I don't knowMike Drummond did a lot of the races last time, Tom did two races out of the five but that's a long time between drinks though.

MW: Can I ask you about when you first started out with the design. How much input did you and Russell put into it when you sat down with Rolf Vrolijk. A lot of people are saying this is a 'Russell Coutts boat', in so far as it's designed to get to the top mark first or at least in touchIs that what you sat down with Rolf and said that's what we want?
BB: No it's not a Russell Coutts boat. When we started this thing we were lucky to be able to start clean with Rolf and Manolo who had done some work with the Spanish challenge before and Dirk Kramers who worked with Young America before. Us guys looked at shapes we liked and it was the Young America boat that we all really liked. So we looked at different families of boats and what we wound up with is a boat with the best hull shape we could come up with. I'd put it more in the family of Oracle, if you look at the Farr boat and our boat, okay our boat is different but it's in much the same kind of family and I think Rolf's come up with a great shape. The fact that it's a good match-racing boat and that it can be manoeuvred and tuned easily that certainly comes from the sailors, the rudder size, the sails and how we use the sails all comes through from the sailing team and also the sail designers. We certainly like a boat that goes upwind, we favour that and we are a little tipped in that direction and there's no secret in that as it's hard to pass downwind.

MW: But you got past Oracle downwind
BB: Yeah but it's taken us the whole regatta to learn how to do that. When you do it's quite a timing issue and the other team has to make a few mistakes for us to do it. Against Oracle we got some nice little puffs to roll over them but it still took about six minutes and by that time we were out at the layline, in fact over the layline, we initiated the gybe because we were clear ahead, then they gybed and we managed to get our air clear forward and by that time it was all over. But if they had gybed at five minutes then they would have probably layed the bottom mark and it would have been a different race.

MW: They didn't sail the greatest series
BB: They just made mistakes and it was tough for them because they kept changing their decision processes at the back of the boat. Going into the Finals, that's not the greatest time to be doing that. But Peter Holmberg I think sailed the boat very well

MW: So do you and Russell have disagreements at all?
BB: Yeah, like every day

MW: So what do you do if Russell doesn't do what you want him to do?
BB: Well I can't do anything he's got the helm! You just move on to the next problem but I'll push him if there's a situation that needs an instant helming decision like if we're going to hit or foul somebody or if it's very important to gybe at the same time as the other boat and he's not even looking at the other boat. If he's sailing the boat and he sees a little shift and I want to tack then he might not tack because he's seen something on the water in front of him and he's got a good handle on some waves and he sees where it's flat etcBut the main thing is to keep him aware of the whole picture.

MW: Could you tell me just how important Simon Daubney is to the whole set up?
BB: Yeah he's critical.

MW: I was watching Russell steering and he was talking to Simon, and they just had the boat in the groove almost threading it through the eye of a needle
BB: Those guys, that triangle of Simon Daubney, Warwick Fleury and Russell is pretty special. I mean Warwick fits into my part of the boat as well as tactically he helps me and also Simon. We have a long relationship and they just know the information that I'm trying to get, so when they see something and often a boat is below us and I'm looking out to weather, they'll tell me and I'm pretty lucky with that.

MW: So who trims downwind?
BB: Richard Bouzaid

MW: And how does he fit in to the mix?
BB: He's a sailmaker and pretty handy sailor. He's won the Round the World race and he's a pretty intelligent sailmaker. So we've got a pretty good trimming department and the depth doesn't just end there it actually goes quite a bit lower.

MW: But Simon Daubney's the man?
BB: Yes I'd say he's by far the best in the world.

MW: Team New Zealand had Clay Oliver and Mike Drummond out today, does Rolf Vrolijk or Grant Simmer go out with you at all?
BB: Grant sails every day. He does the tactics on the other boat with Jochen and he was initially doing the tactics with Russell and I went and sailed with Jochen. So he sails every day and Rolf comes out whenever he feels like it. He doesn't come out every day but most weeks he's out there on the boat.

MW: That was the whole key to the Kiwi success before, in many peoples opinion, that the designers were on the boat and not handing dictums from on highDoes that carry over into the Alinghi campaign?
BB: Yes in fact more so because we have the guys that analyse the testing program like Luc Dubois on board and the testing side is very closely joined to the sailing team.

MW: The sail designers?
BB: Well they don't come out a lot as we have SailVision running so there's a ton of pictures and so much data that these guys can work from-It's mind-boggling really!

MW: When did you first see the Hula on the TNZ boats?
BB: The first time I saw it was in a picture about 4-5 months ago.

MW: What was your initial reaction to it?
BB: Well we didn't really react too much to it as it's an old concept. A lot of people looked at doing it and we looked at it but didn't really push it too far so it'll be interesting to see how it works out.

MW: So were people looking at this in other Cups or is it only of this generation?
BB: No there have been all sorts of crazy ideas going around for some time like building a boat inside a boat and you can take it to a crazy level with all the weird and wonderful ideas floating around. But those guys (TNZ) have pinned their hopes on that one.

MW: There was a lot of talk about a forward rudder
BB: Yeah well you saw that on NZL-57And that was a waste of time.

MW: Let's go on to the controversy about you leaving TNZYou guys are the best sailors in the world, even if I look at the top estimates the sums are laughable compared with top-flight American sports for instance. Did you go for the money? Are you guys underpaid?
BB: YesLet's set the story straight we never left for the money. Russell and I worked for three years, and a little later on Tom Schnackenberg as well, to have a seamless transition between the management and the owners of the team from 95-00 to a new management organization for 2003. We actually worked on for several months after the Cup was won, the problem was that the owners and the sponsors never wanted us to carry on with it. Peter Blake had moved on

MW: Hold on you're saying that there are owners of TNZ who are they?
BB: John Lusk, Tom Clarke, Jim Hoare, Roger France, Richard Green. They weren't the trustees, they owned it along with the sponsors that were there last time.

MW: And why didn't they want you there?
BB: I don't know. They made it impossible for us to carry on and we worked for three years to sort this out because we knew that if we won in 2000 we'd have a lot of problems funding the thing this time and also keeping a team. We couldn't wait a year and then say to these guys 'come on let's do it again' as they (the crew) were all getting job offers before the Cup started. So the night of winning in 2000 should have been one of the best times of my life but I was actually bitterly disappointed at the attitude of these guys that had made it impossible for us to carry on. So I could see the whole thing falling apart. So it's just a lie that we went for the money. It's a lie that we were the first to leave, we were the last to leave.

MW: You and Russell have often said that when the whole story comes out everyone will understand. Is this the whole story?
BB: It's so complicated, the whole story is three years and Russell wants to take his own timing to do this so that we do the right thing by the last team that we were with. At that time it wasn't going to work for us and we just wanted to move on although we still have quite an affection for the team that we won twice with.

MW: So when did you know that you weren't going to be able to stay? When Russell gave the wheel to Dean on the last race?
BB:No

MW: It all became clear after that? You say the day that you won was a disappointing day, was it all clear then?
BB: It was a disappointing day because most of the crew were taking offers from other syndicates and we were powerless, because we weren't the owners, to do anything. We were just two sailors in that team.

MW: Were you asking the crew to wait and not make a decision until you could come back with a better deal?
BB: We did ask them to come to us and tell us what was going on and we tried to get them to delay a decision but we never ever told them not to do it, it's not our lives so they could do what they like.

MW: So were Andrew Taylor and those guys who went to OneWorld gone before you left?
BB: Yes

MW: So they went right away?
BB: I think OneWorld were negotiating, actually I know they were, through Barry Mackay of Team New Zealand even before the Cup was won.

MW: And Barry Mackay stayed?
BB: Yes he did.

MW: Was control of sponsorships an issue? The sailors ability to control or at least have a few sponsorships ever an issue?
BB: No

MW: Or to control who the sponsors of the boat were?
BB: Well yes as that's how you derive your income and so if you're going to have a budget of whatever it was last time, $50 million, then each piece of the pie is worth a bit and if you're stuck to that number whilst everyone else is spending more on rig design, research and more sails. I mean in 1995 when we won we all went off and did other jobs. I didn't start working for Team New Zealand for another year and a half.

MW: That was a five year wait
BB: That was a five year wait and there was no plan in place, there was no transition of management and there was no direction it was just all (shrugs)In the end we were locked out of Team New Zealand. There's been a lot of lies told and it continues to go on here which has actually been detrimental to the whole event I think.

MW: Did they make it clear to you that you're not welcome? Is that how it worked, the trustees just said 'get out'?
BB: No so many words but you work it out after a while.

MW: So they weren't willing to make it happen for you
BB: That's right. I mean at the end of 2000, there's the team, we've just won so what happens now you knoweverybody is hot to trot about this thing and you can either you know move into selling sponsorship for next time and securing your funding but we couldn't do that. If you remember back the Protocol was announced by Richard Grant, he was the orchestrator and he wrote the Protocol

MW: So you had the job to do these things but you didn't have the authority to do these things-to get sponsors, create a budget, sign sailors
BB: We had no power to do that whatsoever.

MW: Were there any sponsors that came to you guys personally?
BB: We had a plan in place at that stage to get things going and we were targeting. But it's pretty difficult to go out and sell something that you don't own. You won't even get in the front door.

MW: Even though you're Russell Coutts and Brad Butterworth?
BB: That's right. Although we sat down and said that between us it just wasn't going to happen.

MW: Is it at all kind of shocking to you, given what you saw of the situation, that TNZ have got a good team, good boat, good budget, good sponsors and good package. Was it something you knew could be done but just not by you and Russell?
BB: I think if they have come up with all those things then that's pretty good. I just don't think that it was going to happen with us.

MW: So would you say 'pushed' or 'jumped'?
BB: Well I couldn't see it working or going in that direction so we moved on.

MW: So with Alinghi is this more fun?
BB: Well Sir Michael Fay introduced us to Ernesto Bertarelli.

MW: But he denies that always
BB: Ah well, he may be having an ageing momentBut I didn't know what would become of that at the time. Ernesto was trying to buy one of the boats, NZL-60, through Michael and he wound up through Michael hooking Russell and Ernesto up.

MW: What about the whole reception here by the Kiwis? The negativity
BB: Yeah well I think it's just a small minority and when you've got guys like Murray Deaker talking on the radio, telling a bunch of lies about us, it's very difficult for us to defend ourselves-We don't have a radio show and so there's been a lot of lies told an a bit of it has stuck. In the end I hope that people see this from the beginning and I hope they look at the sport and see that at the end of the day that no matter what goes on off the water the best team will win. If Team New Zealand have come up with a breakthrough and win the regatta then they will be the best team because they'll have to sail well as well.

MW: Do you think the media down here push too much for the defection story?
BB: Yes I do, I think it's dead, an old storyIt's an easy way for them to sell their paper and sell their advertising on their radio show and Auckland's a small town, New Zealand's a small country and it's a story that's become easy for them to write about and the same old things they write about-it's pretty boring really. I men the racing is pretty high quality and it's the sport that I'm really interested in.

MW: Do you think it's the fact that the New Zealand people think that they can't compete with the billionaires like Larry Ellison or Ernesto Bertarelli that they have to go on the nationalism ticket?
BB: No I don't really buy that. In 1992 I was with Michael Fay and they had a huge budget building 3-4-5 boats. In 1995 we built two boats on a budget of $30m (NZD), spent 8 months training and won. Sure money is a good thing but it's not the be all and end all.

MW: Final question: Do you think you can beat Team New Zealand?
BB: I think so. I wouldn't be here if I didn't. We've got a really good boat and sailing team. All the parts seem to have together at the right time and Russell has done a better job than ever before under difficult circumstances that have and will in the end have made us stronger.