New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Finish line, Direction from last mark definition
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Finish line, Direction from last mark definition
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Andymac View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Apr 07
Location: Derbyshire
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Finish line, Direction from last mark definition
    Posted: 15 Apr 12 at 7:42am
Originally posted by JimC

OK Gordon, here's something that mischievously occurs to me... Finish is a dead run, with a low mark at the port end of the line. A boat goes to the port end of the finish line and passes the mark on the port end leaving it to starboard, but the end of her boom, in the normal position, crosses the line on the correct side of the mark and without the mainsheet or anything else making contact as the boom passes over the mark. Absent any further local SIs I rather think the boat has finished correctly.

Having said that if you finish in such a way that its impossible for a normally positioned RC to judge whether you did finish or not, then I think you deserve everything you get...
 
Jim, I just love these mischevous situations however contrived, because they fully test the integrity of the rules (and definitions).
I agree with you that under the definition of finishing, the boat will have finished correctly as soon as the end of the boom (in the normal sailing position) crossed the line on the correct side. There is no obligation for the whole boat to cross the line, but they would have to 'clear' the line without then fouling the mark with the boom end/sheet, otherwise they would have to then take a penalty before 'finishing'.
 
EDIT; Stuart, AKA Drifter posted that exact poser (for real) earlier on in the thread!


Edited by Andymac - 15 Apr 12 at 7:46am
Back to Top
Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 24 May 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1341 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 12 at 8:53am
Would it be covered by Rule 28? It may meet the definition of finishing, but does it meet he requirements for sailing the course.
Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"
Back to Top
gordon View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Sep 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 12 at 9:43am
Thanks for providing the jury here with a subject of discussion.

The boat has finished, however she has not sailed the course and has broken rule 28.1. She may correct that error and finish a second time.
Gordon
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Online
Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 12 at 10:07am
Please could you elucidate Gordon: I'm sure you're right, or at least certainly ought to be right, but I couldn't make a distinction in my head between that and a boat which crosses the line with one item of equipment in its correct location and then drifts back... Consider a line set almost parallel to the last leg and a boat in which the boom end crosses the line right in the middle to finish and then the boat doesn't cross the line any further but returns to the course side. and then sails round the end of the line.



28 SAILING THE COURSE

28.1 A boat shall start, [yes] leave each mark on the required side in the correct order, [yes]and finish,[yes] so that a string representing her track after starting and until finishing would when drawn taut
(a) pass each mark on the required side, [yes]
(b) touch each rounding mark, and [yes]
(c) pass between the marks of a gate from the direction of the previous
mark. [yes]
She may correct any errors to comply with this rule. After finishing
she need not cross the finishing line completely

Now the string doesn't touch the finishing line, but I'm not sure it needs to...
Back to Top
Andymac View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Apr 07
Location: Derbyshire
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 12 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by JimC

Please could you elucidate Gordon: I'm sure you're right, or at least certainly ought to be right, but I couldn't make a distinction in my head between that and a boat which crosses the line with one item of equipment in its correct location and then drifts back... Consider a line set almost parallel to the last leg and a boat in which the boom end crosses the line right in the middle to finish and then the boat doesn't cross the line any further but returns to the course side. and then sails round the end of the line.



28 SAILING THE COURSE

28.1 A boat shall start, [yes] leave each mark on the required side in the correct order, [yes]and finish,[yes] so that a string representing her track after starting and until finishing would when drawn taut
(a) pass each mark on the required side, [yes]
(b) touch each rounding mark, and [yes]
(c) pass between the marks of a gate from the direction of the previous
mark. [yes]
She may correct any errors to comply with this rule. After finishing
she need not cross the finishing line completely

Now the string doesn't touch the finishing line, but I'm not sure it needs to...
 
Ditto, since there is no obligation for the boat to pass through the line to 'finish', I can't see how the boat has failed to sail the course. Once she has 'finished', any course obligations end.
Back to Top
drifter View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 09 Jun 08
Location: Oxfordshire
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 177 		Post Options Post Options   Quote drifter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 12 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by drifter

I think we're all agreed-hook finishes are extremely undesirable!

No, they're not undesirable: they're impossible. It is genuinely impossible to set a hook finish in a race held under the RRS.

Unfortunately that doesn't stop people trying!


That's really interesting. I've spent all day imagining the scenarios involved, and have offered to write something for our club newsletter as hook finishes are all too common. Thanks for your advice.
Stewart
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 12 at 9:03am
So a finish line can be exactly parallel to the direction of the last mark (so you turn slightly at the ODM to cross) but as soon as it is at a negative angle, you would automatically cross in the other direction, even if you had been using the ODM as a mark of the course up to then?

Just getting this clear in my head...
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
alstorer View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 02 Aug 07
Location: Cambridge
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 12 at 9:45am
Yes, that is in fact how the rulebook defines it.
-_
Al
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Online
Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 12 at 10:39am
Precisely Rupert, nice way to explain it, I shall have to remember that...
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy