Finish line, Direction from last mark definition
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9200
Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 9:15am
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Topic: Finish line, Direction from last mark definition
Posted By: Andymac
Subject: Finish line, Direction from last mark definition
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 12:31pm
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We raced last night in light and variable wind.
The R.O. set a 'triangular' course with three racing marks to be left to Port.
The start line between the committee boat and an ODM was also a 'gate' to be sailed through on each lap. The race was finished (for the majority of the fleet) after 2 laps.
The issue was that the start/gate line, which also acts as the finish line, was set obliquely to the preceding mark. At the finish, in the prevailing conditions the proper course for the boats approaching the line was contra to that of the course set. The majority of the fleet 'hooked' the finish and crossed the line in the 'correct' direction whilst others did the opposite.
Personally, I hooked the finish (got a hoot from the R.O.) then unwound myself and crossed from the opposite way, just for insurance.
Debate followed in the changing rooms, I maintain that either direction was legitimate in the circumstances. I think there is case history on such a thing, does anyone know it? Gordon??
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Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 12:37pm
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The only time sailing through either direction is legitimate is when its not possible to judge which way through is the right way. Otherwise its always from the last mark.
Its impossible to set a hook finish because any attempt to do so would be changing a definition, which cannot be done in NOR or SIs. And yes, there is a case in the ISAF case book. |
Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 1:02pm
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Hi, 32.2 If the race committee signals a shortened course
(displays flag S with two sounds), the finishing line shall be, (b) at a line boats are required to cross at the end of each
lap, that line; (c) at a gate, between the gate marks.
The shortened course shall be signalled before
the first boat crosses the finishing line and Finishing is:- A
boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment innormal
position, crosses the finishing line in the direction of the course from the
last mark, either for the first time or after taking a penalty under rule 44.2
or, after correcting an error made at the finishing line., under rule 28.1. All from the RRS 2009-2012 Colin |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 2:03pm
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CASE 82 When a finishing line is laid so nearly in line with the last leg that it cannot be determined which is the correct way to cross it in order to finish according to the definition, a boat may cross the line in either direction and her finish is to be recorded accordingly. ------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 2:04pm
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I'm confused. If you were sailing through the line as a "gate" on each lap, surely you just do the same for the finish?
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: furtive
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 2:46pm
| It depends how the "gate" is oriented relative to the previous mark. If in sailing the same course as on a non-finish lap you create a hook finish, then you are not finishing correctly. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 3:33pm
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Not necessarily, no Rupert.
Take this as an example of the common error. All marks left to port, start and finish to be between ID and 4. 
You finish by touching the finish line with ID on your port side and 4 on your Starboard side, because the from the last mark, 3, to the finish line, 4, is in that direction. Which way you rounded 4 on previous laps is irrelevant. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 4:08pm
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Ah, yes, that makes sense. In a case like that, move the finish line so ID is down screen, not across, I guess
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 4:18pm
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In the OP situation of 3 marks, if the line is set above the leeward mark, it's quite possible for the finish line to be pointing at the wing mark... Then you can expect some exciting moments on the finish line. If you're doing lap timed handicap racing, then it's also difficult to move the committee boat unless all the boats are on the same lap. Colin
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Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 6:47pm
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Hi,
Thanks for your input so far...
I wish I could work out how to do one of the diagrams like JimC's to accurately depict the circumstances.
Case 82 was the one I was thinking of, thank you Lukepiewalker.
The line was set inside a 'bay' (on an inland lake) and a dogleg needed to be sailed to reach it. Compounded by a biased beat which meant boats approached from almost the opposite way. It should be noted that there was an alternative navigable channel (had anybody tried to use it) which would have given an approach to the line from the 'correct' direction, but wind direction and strength rendered it unsuitable.
The 'direction' of the previous mark was difficult to judge because it was obscured by the 'headland'. I would have estimated that the line was near perpendicular to a datum bearing from the previous mark. The wrong sided approach was very much dictated by 'proper course' but I would have thought that 'proper course' does not alone constitute the direction of the last leg over and above the compass bearing, or does it?
And yes, Colin it was lap timed handicap racing.
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Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 6:56pm
| Further to the 'hook' finish scenario, I will pose a hypothetical situation where an upwind finish line is set midsteam against a strong current in light winds. It would be reasonable for boats to cheat the current and sail above the line then sail out into the current and 'hook' down around the finish line. The 'hook' finish there is purely a product of sailing a 'proper course' and not the setting of the course marks. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 6:57pm
| Andy, I think in those circumstances a PC ought to give redress of finishing time to any boats that finished in the wrong direction. Clearly it was very confusing... |
Posted By: drifter
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 8:01pm
I've been here. Imagine 3-4 is a starboard tack run. Hull leaves 4 to port, boom end leaves it to starboard. Have you finished? ------------- Stewart |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 8:07pm
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Stewart: I think you'll find that the definition of finishing answers your question.
I don't think its possible to overstress how important it is to study the definitions: more so than the individual rules really... |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 8:31pm
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Aye. Of course, it would rather help if ROs/course setters, especially at club level, knew this definition- as it would help avoid the situation arising in the first place ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 14 Apr 12 at 5:53pm
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If there is a dog leg to get to the finish mark the "direction of the course from the last mark" would be the direction a boat can sail from the last mark, not some theoretical overland course. On the other hand if boats have to sail up tide of the finish line before coming down to finish this does not change the "direction from the next mark". ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: drifter
Date Posted: 14 Apr 12 at 8:06pm
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I think we're all agreed-hook finishes are extremely undesirable!
------------- Stewart |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Apr 12 at 9:57pm
No, they're not undesirable: they're impossible. It is genuinely impossible to set a hook finish in a race held under the RRS. Unfortunately that doesn't stop people trying! |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Apr 12 at 10:14pm
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OK Gordon, here's something that mischievously occurs to me... Finish is a dead run, with a low mark at the port end of the line. A boat goes to the port end of the finish line and passes the mark on the port end leaving it to starboard, but the end of her boom, in the normal position, crosses the line on the correct side of the mark and without the mainsheet or anything else making contact as the boom passes over the mark. Absent any further local SIs I rather think the boat has finished correctly.
Having said that if you finish in such a way that its impossible for a normally positioned RC to judge whether you did finish or not, then I think you deserve everything you get... |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 15 Apr 12 at 7:31am
Thanks Gordon. As I added, there was a navigable channel (had anybody used it) which would have given an approach to the line from the 'correct' side. Given that a boat could have sailed an alternative course, would you agree that in this perverse situation case 82 applied? As a postscript, I think someone must have lodged a protest, because some boats in the fast fleet have been given redress.
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Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 15 Apr 12 at 7:42am
Jim, I just love these mischevous situations however contrived, because they fully test the integrity of the rules (and definitions). I agree with you that under the definition of finishing, the boat will have finished correctly as soon as the end of the boom (in the normal sailing position) crossed the line on the correct side. There is no obligation for the whole boat to cross the line, but they would have to 'clear' the line without then fouling the mark with the boom end/sheet, otherwise they would have to then take a penalty before 'finishing'. EDIT; Stuart, AKA Drifter posted that exact poser (for real) earlier on in the thread!
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Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 15 Apr 12 at 8:53am
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Would it be covered by Rule 28? It may meet the definition of finishing, but does it meet he requirements for sailing the course.
------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 15 Apr 12 at 9:43am
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Thanks for providing the jury here with a subject of discussion. The boat has finished, however she has not sailed the course and has broken rule 28.1. She may correct that error and finish a second time. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Apr 12 at 10:07am
Please could you elucidate Gordon: I'm sure you're right, or at least certainly ought to be right, but I couldn't make a distinction in my head between that and a boat which crosses the line with one item of equipment in its correct location and then drifts back... Consider a line set almost parallel to the last leg and a boat in which the boom end crosses the line right in the middle to finish and then the boat doesn't cross the line any further but returns to the course side. and then sails round the end of the line.
Now the string doesn't touch the finishing line, but I'm not sure it needs to... |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 15 Apr 12 at 4:59pm
Ditto, since there is no obligation for the boat to pass through the line to 'finish', I can't see how the boat has failed to sail the course. Once she has 'finished', any course obligations end.
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Posted By: drifter
Date Posted: 15 Apr 12 at 9:33pm
That's really interesting. I've spent all day imagining the scenarios involved, and have offered to write something for our club newsletter as hook finishes are all too common. Thanks for your advice. ------------- Stewart |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Apr 12 at 9:03am
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So a finish line can be exactly parallel to the direction of the last mark (so you turn slightly at the ODM to cross) but as soon as it is at a negative angle, you would automatically cross in the other direction, even if you had been using the ODM as a mark of the course up to then? Just getting this clear in my head... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 16 Apr 12 at 9:45am
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Yes, that is in fact how the rulebook defines it. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Apr 12 at 10:39am
| Precisely Rupert, nice way to explain it, I shall have to remember that... |