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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Raising rudder
    Posted: 29 Apr 11 at 2:37pm

I would be inclined to agree with Brass on that.

An approach to the sailing committee (or via the Laser fleet captain in the first instance) to educate the transgressors would be my first move.
To be honest, I can't see that there would be any legal gain in it. The Laser rudder is quite small anyway, so the amount of reduced wetted area would be minimal. You would be looking to get your weight as far forward (without going in front of the mast, as previously mentioned) to lift the stern/rudder out the water, If you had the rudder up then that could significantly reduce control. As a Laser sailor myself, I wouldn't even bother with it.
If on the other hand, they are utilising the extra leverage for sculling then that is illegal in itself and I would say more of an issue.
 
Here is another class rule regarding rudders, for the Sprint(Dart)15 cat, which looks like would allow for a 'shortcut' across a bar;
 
7. (a)  Both rudders shall be at all times in the fully down position except when clearing underwater obstructions.
 
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 11 at 2:54pm

If shortcutting across shallow areas, where other classes cannot follow is a significant issue, then the RC should ensure that SI's are written and courses set to maintain fairness.

I have in the past started club race from a fixed shoreline transit, where the shore end was favourably biased, I could naturally risk getting a lot nearer to shore in my Laser than say the Flying fifteen keelboats. There are certain races ( the round Sheppey springs to mind) where some boats with centreboards etc. can risk the close shore more than say a fast boat with deep daggerboards. The same applies with the yachts in the round IOW, where smaller yachts can get closer inshore. As in any handicap race, the RO on the day should endeavour to set courses which do not confer a significant advantage to any one boat, but then that's not always easy to do...
As long as they pass all the marks on the course correctly, then that is fair play.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 11 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Contender443

Do class rules apply when you are handicap racing?  


Absolutely and in their entirety. RRS 78.
RRS78  may be refering to 'class' as in class flag under which you are racing.
In a handicap race, you are racing in the handicap class. The class rules are then the rules of the handicap scheme.
 
Some yachts race in handicap events under dual certificates where they are outside their one-design class rules. Or perhaps more commonly carry certificates restricting genoa size for a better rating.
 
To get back on topic, with some sorts of weed, in some conditions, it can really pay to angle the rudder back 30 to 45 degrees, if your rudder will cope with this.
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 11 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

RRS78  may be refering to 'class' as in class flag under which you are racing.

Do you have any evidence for that?
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Posts: 584 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 11 at 2:42pm
If you wish to do a handicap race as a "RS 400" for example the RSS 78 refers to the class rules so your boat would have to measure as a RS400 to use that PY No.
OR you could tell the RO that you are using non class legal sails or foils or a modified hull & ask for a "delvopment PY" No to be issued for you to race with.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 11 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by RS400atC

RRS78  may be refering to 'class' as in class flag under which you are racing.

Do you have any evidence for that?
No.
 
I might ask if you have any evidence to the contrary?
 
Personally I don't think the rules were written for the Wilmington-on-Sea thursday night menagerie class, ISAF is only thinking of Class Racing and Big Boats.
 
I suppose  the NoR should clarify what boats are invited to enter.
It usually lists the 'classes' as various handicap groups and some one designs....
 
Dictionary definition of class is similar rather than identical objects, the way we use the word in sailing for a design or marque is a bit peculiar to sailing perhaps?
 
It's a shame there are not more 'one off' dinghies racing in some ways, but on the whole I prefer class racing, as in one design or no time allowances.
 
But if we are racing handicap with weed about, why should I be allowed to sail with my rudder up a bit and a laser sailer not? Do you really think Mr Laser Sailor should apply for a new PY so he can raise his rudder?
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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 11 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

In a handicap race, you are racing in the handicap class. The class rules are then the rules of the handicap scheme.


Correct. Proper handicap rules such as IRC, for example, have class rules. http://www.ircrating.org/images/stories/pdf/2011/irc2011_rule_final_5_101219.pdf

It's by no means uncommon for cruisers which belong to no organised class at all to race PY. So what "class rule" exactly are they supposed to follow?

That would be the PY Class Rule, which doesn't actually exist. Oh dear.

There is however this http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/2007%20Portsmouth%20Yardstick%20Scheme/2007%201%20Objectives%20and%20Using%20the%20Scheme.pdf

5.8 Should an Owner decide to race his boat to anything other than
Base Rig, he should declare the difference to the club and the club
should allocate a Trial Number for the boat. In such cases the boat
shall not change from its declared state during a series of races. If
no difference is declared the club should apply the lowest Number
applicable for the class during a series of races.

So I think whoever said you can do what you like so long as you tell the race officer gets the Gold Star here.


Edited by blueboy - 10 May 11 at 5:13pm
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 11 at 8:05am
If weed is an issue then simply have an entry in your SI's that permits you to raise your rudder to avoid it.
 
In a class like a Laser where the rudder is very short you are actually worse off as the rudder gets very heavy and even less effectively than it is normally.
 
I find that a well executed roll tack or roll gybe is normally enough to remove most weed unless you have caught a big lump in which case running your hand down the leading edge if the blade is quicker than raising and lowering it (in the Laser anyway which does not have a rudder uphaul)...
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Posts: 241 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 11 at 10:57am
Still need a bit of verifiying here chaps -  if the laser class rules state that under 1.5m of water etc where exactly is that measured? If you were river racing or estuary racing you can creep in against the tide if you raise your rudder (it is mainly a downwind issue as upwind the extra pressure - is unhelpful).
If i launch in an area that is under 1.5m deep does that mean i can 'fiddle with the depth of my rudder?
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 11 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by fudheid

Still need a bit of verifiying here chaps -  if the laser class rules state that under 1.5m of water etc where exactly is that measured? If you were river racing or estuary racing you can creep in against the tide if you raise your rudder (it is mainly a downwind issue as upwind the extra pressure - is unhelpful).
If i launch in an area that is under 1.5m deep does that mean i can 'fiddle with the depth of my rudder?
Probably a question for the Laser CA rather than a general forum.
 
The Yachtmaster part of me suggests 1.5 charted depth below chart datum....
Inland waters 'if you can see the bottom' will do?
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