Raising rudder
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7766
Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 4:16am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Raising rudder
Posted By: fudheid
Subject: Raising rudder
Date Posted: 21 Apr 11 at 1:34pm
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Are you allowed to raise your rudder when racing? For example to cheat the tide or go across a bar at low water? we have lots of lasers that keep whipping us because they can lift everything and cut through sand banks...  |
Replies:
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 21 Apr 11 at 1:38pm
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It depends on the class rules. In a Laser, not you can't.
------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 21 Apr 11 at 1:45pm
Do class rules apply when you are handicap racing? And would the majority of people know that it is against Laser Class rules to lift your rudder why sailing? ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 21 Apr 11 at 1:52pm
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They apply if you say you're sailing a Laser. If you said it was a Laser like boat with a variable rudder angle, then you'd be ok.
------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 21 Apr 11 at 1:56pm
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im guessing your racing at felixstowe, i used to raise my foils and sail over the bar, its just a good tactic, and nothing in the club rules says you cant, normally they make you go around the green and red markers to stop you going through the cut ------------- TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala |
Posted By: ASok
Date Posted: 21 Apr 11 at 2:16pm
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I think its relatively standard practice on a Hobie cat to help reduce drag in light winds. They normally only lift one though.
No approved on a Dart 18 ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Apr 11 at 2:17pm
Absolutely and in their entirety. RRS 78. |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 21 Apr 11 at 2:40pm
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(j) The rudder shall be maintained in the full down position except whilst racing in water less than 1.5m deep unless otherwise specified in the sailing instructions. I take it back... ------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 21 Apr 11 at 4:02pm
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Crikey- a Laser rule with a common-sense allowance? Blimey! ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 21 Apr 11 at 4:07pm
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[QUOTE=Lukepiewalker](j) The rudder shall be maintained in the full down position except whilst racing in water less than 1.5m deep unless otherwise specified in the sailing instructions. I take it back... Where's it say that in the RRS?Apparently a local RYA P.O.R. said that there has been protests upheld and it is not allowed to adjust rudder when racing. Unless it is designed to do so like a foil....... Just can't find the rule |
Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 21 Apr 11 at 4:09pm
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[QUOTE=olly_love]im guessing your racing at felixstowe, i used to raise my foils and sail over the bar, its just a good tactic, and nothing in the club rules says you cant, normally they make you go around the green and red markers to stop you going through the cut well the club rule race under the isaf rules........also having raced at felixstowe they don't always put the bar buoys in - makes it interesting when you have a choice of entrys (fnarr  ) |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Apr 11 at 4:26pm
Think there may have been a bit of Chinese whispering going on... Lifting the rudder so as to better paddle with it, for instance, to scull with the rudder on the startline is prohibited under propulsion rules. Lifting the rudder to clear sandbanks is fine under RRS. Then anything that is in the class rules of any particular class always applies to that class, even in handicap racing, because RRS says you must obey class rules. So in this case the Laser rules say you can only lift the rudder in shallow water. |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 21 Apr 11 at 5:54pm
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OK so we have done the Laser, what about any other classes?
Also are there any other "odd" class specific rules that you may not know about. For example I think the RS200 does not allow goosewinging the kite. ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: tomoore1
Date Posted: 21 Apr 11 at 8:24pm
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What if you have a load of weed on the rudder, could you raise and lower it to clear it? ------------- Restoring Firefly 517 |
Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 22 Apr 11 at 8:17am
In a laser a couple of roll tacks will clear the rudder of allbut the most stubborn weed. There is a silly thing in the laser rules that states: No part of the helmsman or crew may be placed forward of the mast while racing. What is the point of that rule? |
Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 22 Apr 11 at 8:23am
Thats not quite true, the class rules seem to say you can boom out the kite to windward but cant hold it with your arm. The circuit SIs tend to say you cant goosewing at all but that just applies at circuit events. < ="text/">#toc, .toc, .mw-warning { border: 1px solid rgb(170, 170, 170); background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249); padding: 5px; font-size: 95%; }#toc h2, .toc h2 { display: inline; border: medium none; padding: 0pt; font-size: 100%; font-weight: bold; }#toc #toctitle, .toc #toctitle, #toc .toctitle, .toc .toctitle { text-align: center; }#toc ul, .toc ul { list-style-type: none; list-style-image: none; margin-left: 0pt; padding-left: 0pt; text-align: left; }#toc ul ul, .toc ul ul { margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 2em; }#toc .toctoggle, .toc .toctoggle { font-size: 94%; }body { text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0in; text-align: left; font-weight: normal; font-variant: normal; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; widows: 2; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; }table { }td { border-collapse: collapse; text-align: left; vertical-align: top; } The clew of the spinnaker or jib may only be boomed-out to set on the opposite side to the mainsail. This rule can be changed by event Sailing Instructions. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Apr 11 at 10:37am
Would have thought the point was obvious. Its to stop you having to crawl in front of the mast to be competitive in the light stuff. If you did have to sail the boat in that awkward manner how many people at inland clubs would say "stuff that" and go and buy a Solo? |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 22 Apr 11 at 8:28pm
Lukepiewalker was quoting LASER class rules not the RRS'.
Here is a class rule from the FIREFLY which could prohibit the action described in the opening post;
FIREFLY class sailing rule 11, d) (iii) The blade of a lifting rudder shall not be raised intentionally or be allowed to remain raised, whilst racing. A boat that gains tactical advantages through raising the rudder (albeit temporarily and/or accidentally) is liable to disqualification. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Apr 11 at 10:37am
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Quite right about the Firefly, and I always keep mine down. Mind, when the wind gets light I can switch to an old style spoon rudder, which is "up" anyway! Interesting about the Laser - all ours sail with them up in light winds, I think, and the lake is mainly more than 1.5m. How does one go about stopping the practice without resorting to protest? Some classes (British Moth springs to mind) have very few rules on rudder shape, so I assume lifting the blade isn't a problem. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 29 Apr 11 at 12:20am
Why would you not want to 'resort' to a protest? Protesting is part of the game. If you think another boat has broken a rule and you want that boat penalised, you SHOULD protest.
OK, so you don't want to be seen to 'ambushing' other competitors with a little-known rule. Here are some things you can do:
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Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 29 Apr 11 at 2:37pm
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I would be inclined to agree with Brass on that. An approach to the sailing committee (or via the Laser fleet captain in the first instance) to educate the transgressors would be my first move.
To be honest, I can't see that there would be any legal gain in it. The Laser rudder is quite small anyway, so the amount of reduced wetted area would be minimal. You would be looking to get your weight as far forward (without going in front of the mast, as previously mentioned) to lift the stern/rudder out the water, If you had the rudder up then that could significantly reduce control. As a Laser sailor myself, I wouldn't even bother with it.
If on the other hand, they are utilising the extra leverage for sculling then that is illegal in itself and I would say more of an issue.
Here is another class rule regarding rudders, for the Sprint(Dart)15 cat, which looks like would allow for a 'shortcut' across a bar;
7. (a) Both rudders shall be at all times in the fully down position except when clearing underwater obstructions.
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Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 29 Apr 11 at 2:54pm
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If shortcutting across shallow areas, where other classes cannot follow is a significant issue, then the RC should ensure that SI's are written and courses set to maintain fairness. I have in the past started club race from a fixed shoreline transit, where the shore end was favourably biased, I could naturally risk getting a lot nearer to shore in my Laser than say the Flying fifteen keelboats. There are certain races ( the round Sheppey springs to mind) where some boats with centreboards etc. can risk the close shore more than say a fast boat with deep daggerboards. The same applies with the yachts in the round IOW, where smaller yachts can get closer inshore. As in any handicap race, the RO on the day should endeavour to set courses which do not confer a significant advantage to any one boat, but then that's not always easy to do...
As long as they pass all the marks on the course correctly, then that is fair play.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 10 May 11 at 1:29pm
In a handicap race, you are racing in the handicap class. The class rules are then the rules of the handicap scheme.
Some yachts race in handicap events under dual certificates where they are outside their one-design class rules. Or perhaps more commonly carry certificates restricting genoa size for a better rating.
To get back on topic, with some sorts of weed, in some conditions, it can really pay to angle the rudder back 30 to 45 degrees, if your rudder will cope with this.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 May 11 at 1:49pm
Do you have any evidence for that? |
Posted By: bert
Date Posted: 10 May 11 at 2:42pm
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If you wish to do a handicap race as a "RS 400" for example the RSS 78 refers to the class rules so your boat would have to measure as a RS400 to use that PY No.
OR you could tell the RO that you are using non class legal sails or foils or a modified hull & ask for a "delvopment PY" No to be issued for you to race with. ------------- Phantom 1181 AC-227 IC 304 blaze / halo 586 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 10 May 11 at 3:11pm
I might ask if you have any evidence to the contrary?
Personally I don't think the rules were written for the Wilmington-on-Sea thursday night menagerie class, ISAF is only thinking of Class Racing and Big Boats.
I suppose the NoR should clarify what boats are invited to enter.
It usually lists the 'classes' as various handicap groups and some one designs....
Dictionary definition of class is similar rather than identical objects, the way we use the word in sailing for a design or marque is a bit peculiar to sailing perhaps?
It's a shame there are not more 'one off' dinghies racing in some ways, but on the whole I prefer class racing, as in one design or no time allowances.
But if we are racing handicap with weed about, why should I be allowed to sail with my rudder up a bit and a laser sailer not? Do you really think Mr Laser Sailor should apply for a new PY so he can raise his rudder?
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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 10 May 11 at 4:32pm
Correct. Proper handicap rules such as IRC, for example, have class rules. http://www.ircrating.org/images/stories/pdf/2011/irc2011_rule_final_5_101219.pdf It's by no means uncommon for cruisers which belong to no organised class at all to race PY. So what "class rule" exactly are they supposed to follow? That would be the PY Class Rule, which doesn't actually exist. Oh dear. There is however this http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/2007%20Portsmouth%20Yardstick%20Scheme/2007%201%20Objectives%20and%20Using%20the%20Scheme.pdf 5.8 Should an Owner decide to race his boat to anything other than Base Rig, he should declare the difference to the club and the club should allocate a Trial Number for the boat. In such cases the boat shall not change from its declared state during a series of races. If no difference is declared the club should apply the lowest Number applicable for the class during a series of races. So I think whoever said you can do what you like so long as you tell the race officer gets the Gold Star here. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 May 11 at 8:05am
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If weed is an issue then simply have an entry in your SI's that permits you to raise your rudder to avoid it.
In a class like a Laser where the rudder is very short you are actually worse off as the rudder gets very heavy and even less effectively than it is normally.
I find that a well executed roll tack or roll gybe is normally enough to remove most weed unless you have caught a big lump in which case running your hand down the leading edge if the blade is quicker than raising and lowering it (in the Laser anyway which does not have a rudder uphaul)... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 11 May 11 at 10:57am
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Still need a bit of verifiying here chaps - if the laser class rules state that under 1.5m of water etc where exactly is that measured? If you were river racing or estuary racing you can creep in against the tide if you raise your rudder (it is mainly a downwind issue as upwind the extra pressure - is unhelpful). If i launch in an area that is under 1.5m deep does that mean i can 'fiddle with the depth of my rudder? |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 May 11 at 12:14pm
The Yachtmaster part of me suggests 1.5 charted depth below chart datum....
Inland waters 'if you can see the bottom' will do?
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