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ifoxwell View Drop Down
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Posts: 669 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ifoxwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Slam dunk?
    Posted: 25 Jan 11 at 10:20am
Originally posted by alstorer

Why should it be "bad form" in club racing if it gives genuine tactical advantage? There's a variety of things the port tack boat can do to mitigate the effects or even stop it happening, and if they don't know how it's perhaps a learning point that you can educate them over a friendly cup of tea/pint of something colder (depending on your club's facilities) afterwards.


I'd consider it bad form at a club meeting. Then i'm just sailing for fun and its no fun being in some ones dirty air. 

If we are all on the layline or there is a some other reason then so be it.... but just to mess up my day would piss me off.

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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 11 at 3:51pm
1. S is on starboard. P on port. P must keep clear (rule 10) and if S changes course she must give P room to keep clear (16.1)
2 P bears away to pass astern. If S changes course she must give P room to keep clear (16.1) AND, as a result of changing course oblige P to immediately change course to keep clear (16.2).
3 If S luffs to tack she must respect the 16.1 and 16.2 obligations above.
4 If S passes head to wind she must keep clear of P (rule 13). As P acquires right of way by S's actions she is not initially required to give S room to keep clear rrule 15. However, if P changes course she must give S room to keep clear (rule 16.1)
5 When S reaches a close-hauled course she will either be overlapped to windward or clear astern. In either case she must keep clear of P (rules 11 and 12). P must give S room to keep clear if P changes course. Provided she gives room to keep clear P can luff head to wind (rule 17)

If P luffs before S passes head to wind she can effectively prevent S from tacking. As soon as S passes head to wind P should hold her course, meaning that S is unable to bear away. With luck and skill P will carry some way leaving S wallowing, and, hopefully, in irons.

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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 11 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by GarethT

but they are annoyed because they have lost distance to windward and are in our dirty air.


Same class? Oh dear, what a shame, they are annoyed.

Different class? That's obnoxious.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 11 at 5:39pm
If there is a genuine race going on between the 2 boats, all well and good. If the starboard boat is working her way back up the fleet for some reason and overtaking less experienced sailors, then leaving enough room before tacking for the other boat to tack clear would only be polite.
 
 
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GarethT View Drop Down
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Posts: 714 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 11 at 8:15pm
The incident in question was in a one design championship race, with both helms in the top 20% of the national fleet.
 
I totally agree with the comments regarding handicap fleets and less experienced sailors.
 
ps - ignore my profile picture - it was nothing to do with OKs. In fact, it was nothing to do with me - I am just helping 'starboard' helm come to terms with the grief he is getting!


Edited by GarethT - 26 Jan 11 at 8:17pm
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 11 at 8:19pm
Crikey, in the situation you describe, especially if late in a regatta and racing for regatta position, it is more than fair game.
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 11 at 8:28pm
As described perfectly legal. The dunk works best if they don't have to bear away to avoid you, if they have to alter course to go around your stern its hard not to be leebowed.

I would consider it bad form if you do it to a beginner.  It could be considered inconsiderate if you are much faster / slower on handicap.  If you're experienced what's the problem just part of racing, move on

It actually carries some risk, if you get it wrong you will be in the dirty air coming back off of the leeward boat's mainsail.

The boat being dunked has a number of strategies, you loose a couple of boat lengths.  Unless team racing you can easily loose the plot having tacking duels and move back down the fleet, so unless you need that tactical advantage not worth doing.

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Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 11 at 1:29am
Originally posted by gordon

1. S is on starboard. P on port. P must keep clear (rule 10) and if S changes course she must give P room to keep clear (16.1)
2 P bears away to pass astern. If S changes course she must give P room to keep clear (16.1) AND, as a result of changing course oblige P to immediately change course to keep clear (16.2).
3 If S luffs to tack she must respect the 16.1 and 16.2 obligations above.
4 If S passes head to wind she must keep clear of P (rule 13). As P acquires right of way by S's actions she is not initially required to give S room to keep clear rrule 15. However, if P changes course she must give S room to keep clear (rule 16.1)
5 When S reaches a close-hauled course she will either be overlapped to windward or clear astern. In either case she must keep clear of P (rules 11 and 12). P must give S room to keep clear if P changes course. Provided she gives room to keep clear P can luff head to wind (rule 17)

If P luffs before S passes head to wind she can effectively prevent S from tacking. As soon as S passes head to wind P should hold her course, meaning that S is unable to bear away. With luck and skill P will carry some way leaving S wallowing, and, hopefully, in irons.

Gordon

If the starboard boat does this close to you, and you have had to bear off to duck the starboard boat, it can be very effective, and i suspect almost impossible for the starboard to protest successfully about, even if port has slightly overdone it, as he will be concentrating on his tack, rather than the port boat. You can also make it look as if you did not luff above close hauled if done at speed, and a well timed roll as you head up. Having said that, it rarely pays to duck an opponent from a tactical point of view, a lee bow, even 2 boat lengths to leeward usually gives you more tactical options, unless there is a good reason to go further right.


Andy
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 11 at 8:52am
Andy,

A couple of points.

1. The question of whether P sails above close hauled is irrelevant as P has no rule 17 obligation. Any overlap is caused by S passing beyond head to wind and coming on to port tack. However P, once she is right of way boat must, when she changes course, give S room to keep clear? The way to do this is not to luff any higher after S passes head to wind. P may well be above a close-hauled course at that precise moment.

2 it would be impossible for S to protest succesfully, not because she is concentrating on her tack, but because - except as stated above - P does not break a rule!

Gordon
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