Slam dunk?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7505
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 6:20am
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Topic: Slam dunk?
Posted By: GarethT
Subject: Slam dunk?
Date Posted: 24 Jan 11 at 8:04pm
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Is 'slam dunking' legal in fleet racing?
We're struggling to find which rule would prohibit it, but the port tacker is still grumbling some time after the incident.
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Replies:
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 24 Jan 11 at 8:23pm
Ask him what rules he believes have been broken.
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Al
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Posted By: bert
Date Posted: 24 Jan 11 at 8:43pm
Originally posted by GarethT
Is 'slam dunking' legal in fleet racing?
We're struggling to find which rule would prohibit it, but the port tacker is still grumbling some time after the incident. |
I may be slow on the up take & have missed something somewhere but what do you mean by a "slam dunk" in sailing terms?
thanks
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Phantom 1181
AC-227 IC 304
blaze / halo 586
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Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 24 Jan 11 at 8:51pm
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We're beating on starboard, they're on port. They duck our transom. As they're doing this, we tack to cover them.
Our tacking does not affect their ability to keep clear, but they are annoyed because they have lost distance to windward and are in our dirty air.
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Posted By: bert
Date Posted: 24 Jan 11 at 9:01pm
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Thanks
Sounds like their hard luck or bad tactics.
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Phantom 1181
AC-227 IC 304
blaze / halo 586
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Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 24 Jan 11 at 10:11pm
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if you hail Starboard do you not need to hold your course while the try to keep clear...if they are ducking your stern i ts suggest you were pretty close so did they have to adjust their course further while you tacked? If so you'd be in the wrong surely
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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor
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Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 24 Jan 11 at 10:18pm
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Having already bore off, they did not have to alter course to avoid us as we tacked.
We are not obliged to hold our course, but if we alter course we must allow the give way boat room to keep clear. Once we pass head to wind we no longer have right of way.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 24 Jan 11 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by Neptune
if you hail Starboard do you not need to hold your course while the try to keep clear...if they are ducking your stern i ts suggest you were pretty close so did they have to adjust their course further while you tacked? If so you'd be in the wrong surely |
No.
The rules contain no obligations about any hail except a hail for room to tack at an obstruction or a hail of 'Protest'.
The rules contain no obligation to 'hold your course'.
Rule 16.1 generally obliges a right of way boat to give the other boat room to keep clear, not necessarily to hold her course. Rule 16.2 covers this specific example and says '[the] starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear.'
Nothing in the rules suggests that the starboard tack boat cannot manoeuvre, by tacking or otherwise, so as to enhance the advantage she has over port.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 25 Jan 11 at 9:14am
I am with Brass on this, as long as you did not impede the port tack boat and not give them enough room to keep clear then you should be fine. In club racing it may be considered 'bad form' though....
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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 25 Jan 11 at 10:09am
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Why should it be "bad form" in club racing if it gives genuine tactical advantage? There's a variety of things the port tack boat can do to mitigate the effects or even stop it happening, and if they don't know how it's perhaps a learning point that you can educate them over a friendly cup of tea/pint of something colder (depending on your club's facilities) afterwards.
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Al
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Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 25 Jan 11 at 10:20am
Originally posted by alstorer
Why should it be "bad form" in club racing if it gives genuine tactical advantage? There's a variety of things the port tack boat can do to mitigate the effects or even stop it happening, and if they don't know how it's perhaps a learning point that you can educate them over a friendly cup of tea/pint of something colder (depending on your club's facilities) afterwards. |
I'd consider it bad form at a club meeting. Then i'm just sailing for fun and its no fun being in some ones dirty air.
If we are all on the layline or there is a some other reason then so be it.... but just to mess up my day would piss me off.
Ian
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RS300
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 26 Jan 11 at 3:51pm
1. S is on starboard. P on port. P must keep clear (rule 10) and if S changes course she must give P room to keep clear (16.1)
2 P bears away to pass astern. If S changes course she must give P room to keep clear (16.1) AND, as a result of changing course oblige P to immediately change course to keep clear (16.2).
3 If S luffs to tack she must respect the 16.1 and 16.2 obligations above.
4 If S passes head to wind she must keep clear of P (rule 13). As P acquires right of way by S's actions she is not initially required to give S room to keep clear rrule 15. However, if P changes course she must give S room to keep clear (rule 16.1)
5 When S reaches a close-hauled course she will either be overlapped to windward or clear astern. In either case she must keep clear of P (rules 11 and 12). P must give S room to keep clear if P changes course. Provided she gives room to keep clear P can luff head to wind (rule 17)
If P luffs before S passes head to wind she can effectively prevent S from tacking. As soon as S passes head to wind P should hold her course, meaning that S is unable to bear away. With luck and skill P will carry some way leaving S wallowing, and, hopefully, in irons.
Gordon
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Gordon
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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 26 Jan 11 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by GarethT
but they are annoyed because they have lost distance to windward and are in our dirty air. |
Same class? Oh dear, what a shame, they are annoyed.
Different class? That's obnoxious.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Jan 11 at 5:39pm
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If there is a genuine race going on between the 2 boats, all well and good. If the starboard boat is working her way back up the fleet for some reason and overtaking less experienced sailors, then leaving enough room before tacking for the other boat to tack clear would only be polite.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 26 Jan 11 at 8:15pm
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The incident in question was in a one design championship race, with both helms in the top 20% of the national fleet.
I totally agree with the comments regarding handicap fleets and less experienced sailors.
ps - ignore my profile picture - it was nothing to do with OKs. In fact, it was nothing to do with me - I am just helping 'starboard' helm come to terms with the grief he is getting!
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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 26 Jan 11 at 8:19pm
Crikey, in the situation you describe, especially if late in a regatta and racing for regatta position, it is more than fair game.
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Al
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Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 26 Jan 11 at 8:28pm
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As described perfectly legal. The dunk works best if they don't have to bear away to avoid you, if they have to alter course to go around your stern its hard not to be leebowed.
I would consider it bad form if you do it to a beginner. It could be considered inconsiderate if you are much faster / slower on handicap. If you're experienced what's the problem just part of racing, move on
It actually carries some risk, if you get it wrong you will be in the dirty air coming back off of the leeward boat's mainsail.
The boat being dunked has a number of strategies, you loose a couple of boat lengths. Unless team racing you can easily loose the plot having tacking duels and move back down the fleet, so unless you need that tactical advantage not worth doing.
Garry
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Garry
Lark 2252, Contender 298
www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk
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Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 30 Jan 11 at 1:29am
Originally posted by gordon
1. S is on starboard. P on port. P must keep clear (rule 10) and if S changes course she must give P room to keep clear (16.1)
2 P bears away to pass astern. If S changes course she must give P room to keep clear (16.1) AND, as a result of changing course oblige P to immediately change course to keep clear (16.2).
3 If S luffs to tack she must respect the 16.1 and 16.2 obligations above.
4 If S passes head to wind she must keep clear of P (rule 13). As P acquires right of way by S's actions she is not initially required to give S room to keep clear rrule 15. However, if P changes course she must give S room to keep clear (rule 16.1)
5 When S reaches a close-hauled course she will either be overlapped to windward or clear astern. In either case she must keep clear of P (rules 11 and 12). P must give S room to keep clear if P changes course. Provided she gives room to keep clear P can luff head to wind (rule 17)
If P luffs before S passes head to wind she can effectively prevent S from tacking. As soon as S passes head to wind P should hold her course, meaning that S is unable to bear away. With luck and skill P will carry some way leaving S wallowing, and, hopefully, in irons.
Gordon
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If the starboard boat does this close to you, and you have had to bear off to duck the starboard boat, it can be very effective, and i suspect almost impossible for the starboard to protest successfully about, even if port has slightly overdone it, as he will be concentrating on his tack, rather than the port boat. You can also make it look as if you did not luff above close hauled if done at speed, and a well timed roll as you head up. Having said that, it rarely pays to duck an opponent from a tactical point of view, a lee bow, even 2 boat lengths to leeward usually gives you more tactical options, unless there is a good reason to go further right.
Andy
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Andy Mck
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 30 Jan 11 at 8:52am
Andy,
A couple of points.
1. The question of whether P sails above close hauled is irrelevant as P has no rule 17 obligation. Any overlap is caused by S passing beyond head to wind and coming on to port tack. However P, once she is right of way boat must, when she changes course, give S room to keep clear? The way to do this is not to luff any higher after S passes head to wind. P may well be above a close-hauled course at that precise moment.
2 it would be impossible for S to protest succesfully, not because she is concentrating on her tack, but because - except as stated above - P does not break a rule!
Gordon
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Gordon
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