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New Rule 87

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Matt Jackson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New Rule 87
    Posted: 06 Dec 08 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by ColPrice2002

When I sailed a one design, we always acknowledged that the one sailmaker to the class would be cheaper to the members than having several sailmakers - each developing their own ideas (and trying them out with the top helms - who then had subsidised sails).

At one time I was involved in running a SMOD class, we researched opening to multiple sailmakers and it definitely was the case that we could get cheaper sails by restricting the class to a single sailmaker, thereby guaranteeing that sailmaker an annual volume of sales. Win-win.

However this assumes that the class can put price pressure on the sailmaker, which clearly isn't happening in the Laser's case. There has to be the threat that the class can take its business elsewhere.

To me this is counter-intuitive. I design mechanical parts (mouldings, castings, pressings etc) which we used to only have made at a single Polish sub-contractor who obviously got all the volume. When we started assembly in China and Mexico, the prices got keener everywhere despite the lower volume at each location.

That's competition for you, with a single source there isn't any incentive for the manufacturer to find a cheaper source of materials or to incorporate improved techniques to get cost out and you just keep paying the same price forever (and accept manufacturers cost inreases) as there is nothing to benchmark against.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote ColPrice2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 08 at 6:12pm

Matt,

I'd agree that competition should make the sails cheaper - everything else being equal.

I buy parts for a "classic" car. Some of the parts will fit exactl, but the quality is poor and they need regular replacement - yet the original lasted for 30+ years - now it's 30 months.

Too much cost competition causes a drop in quality.

With sails - look at the Merlin fleet. Each sailmaker is competing to make the fastest shape because that means more sales. Obviously, this isn't a free exercise, so the costs come from the purchasers.

What you need is a set of standard templates and a standard quality sail-cloth which the class association can rent to sailmakers. That should ensure eqivalent sails from different manufacturers.

Colin

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Post Options Post Options   Quote mike10626 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 08 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by jlecou

I have been considering how to amend our club's Sailing Instructions to allow replica sails in [low key!] club racing and, prior to reading this thread, was proposing the following:

 

"2.7     Replica Sails: If a competitor wishes to take part in a Club series and/or cup race in a Single Manufacturer One Design (SMOD) with a non manufacturer provided sail, that competitor must obtain the prior approval of the relevant Class Captain (or, in the case of the Class Captain, the Sailing Secretary) to use such a sail.  RRS 87 shall not apply."

 

Is this adequate?  Can a club's SI's can overturn a RRS rule that prevents that Club's SI's overturning a Class Association rule?

 
James

James,

Why do you feel a need to write a S.I. to do this ?  Can;'t you just rely on the long established practice in club racing that you do not protest out beginners for infringements to measurement rules (or other minor rule infringements).  You could also extend this to have a gentlemens agreement among the more experienced sailors to use your practice sails for normal club racing.  After all these rules can only be enforced by taking someone to a protest.

Writing this down for everyone to see could well mean that Class Associations may start thinking of actions they can take to get their equipment rules applied.  The obvious action I can think of is removing any Class Association events from your club.  Do you really want to spark off a war between clubs and class associations ?

If the members of this forum really feel strongly about this issue isn't it time they went along to their class AGM with some rule change proposals.  I am sure many class associations would appreciate an opportunity to properly debate these issues with club sailors.

Mike

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 08 at 9:03am
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd


However this assumes that the class can put price pressure on the sailmaker, which clearly isn't happening in the Laser's case. There has to be the threat that the class can take its business elsewhere.


The problem is when it comes to the Laser is that the builder (Laser Performance) holds all the cards. The Class Assoc has very little influence over the class rules and equipment.

Originally posted by mike10626


James,

Why do you feel a need to write a S.I. to do this ?  Can;'t you just rely on the long established practice in club racing that you do not protest out beginners for infringements to measurement rules (or other minor rule infringements).  You could also extend this to have a gentlemens agreement among the more experienced sailors to use your practice sails for normal club racing.  After all these rules can only be enforced by taking someone to a protest.

Writing this down for everyone to see could well mean that Class Associations may start thinking of actions they can take to get their equipment rules applied.  The obvious action I can think of is removing any Class Association events from your club.  Do you really want to spark off a war between clubs and class associations ?

If the members of this forum really feel strongly about this issue isn't it time they went along to their class AGM with some rule change proposals.  I am sure many class associations would appreciate an opportunity to properly debate these issues with club sailors.

Mike

Mike,

I don't think any class is going to take action against any club for things like this. Being a member of the same club as James (and also being on the sailing committee with him) I know the background of this. There are a very small minority of members who are resistant to this, that is their right. The majority view however is to allow the replica sails. This is just a way to prevent arguments breaking out over them. As it is the SI was not actually valid anyway as the current RRS 2005-2008 does prohibit this kind of SI already it is just not as clear.

What I believ we are going to do is create a 'local' class of a Laser type boat which has identical rules as the international Laser class with the exception of the sail. The sail must however be approved by the Laser fleet captain (to prevent people turning up with something wierd and wonderful). We all like the idea of the Laser which is every boat is the same, we just want to make it more affordable to those who cannot afford to spend £430 a year to buy a new sail.

Just a quick comparison here. I used to sail a Blaze, a mainsail for that was just over £500. This was a sail that has evolved and uses the latest cloths. I have no bones about paying for one of those because I can see where my money has gone.

Paul

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 08 at 2:05pm

Originally posted by jeffers

The difference is that most club sailors can justify spendong that amount of money every other year but cannot justify spending £430 every year which is what they would need to do to remain competitive (or have the psychological effect of a crispy new sail).

The good news is that Laser Performance are working on a new sail, the bad news is that it wont be released until after the 2012 olympics. At least it gives them time to get it right (but we are drifiting off the original topic here).

 

Not sure there Paul, my mate recently turned up at the final wessex laser travellers event of the year in an old boat with a sail that was 15 years old, it was magnolia in colour (the sail) batten flutter galore and tbh i wouldnt blow my nose with it.  He smoked the first race and came second overall, the standard of the fleet was apparantly high.  (i came mid fleet, which i was chuffeed about as i had only just stepped back into a laser after a 12 year break)  Now you could argue that if he had a new sail and boat he would of won, and you would probably be right.  But it just shows that its the nut on the tiller and not always the gear. 

 

For the record i'm for club racing with replica sails as i agree that the laser sail is over priced, if it were me i would buy a new laser sail for open events and use a replica or old sail for club racing/training.  You should get a good life 2years plus out of  a laser that way.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 08 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by Merlinboy

 

Not sure there Paul, my mate recently turned up at the final wessex laser travellers event of the year in an old boat with a sail that was 15 years old, it was magnolia in colour (the sail) batten flutter galore and tbh i wouldnt blow my nose with it.  He smoked the first race and came second overall, the standard of the fleet was apparantly high.  (i came mid fleet, which i was chuffeed about as i had only just stepped back into a laser after a 12 year break)  Now you could argue that if he had a new sail and boat he would of won, and you would probably be right.  But it just shows that its the nut on the tiller and not always the gear. 

 

For the record i'm for club racing with replica sails as i agree that the laser sail is over priced, if it were me i would buy a new laser sail for open events and use a replica or old sail for club racing/training.  You should get a good life 2years plus out of  a laser that way.



I used to do that a few years back. I had an old knackered sail and used to win a lot of club races, I always used the 'good' sail for the open meeting though. But to be fair it was always windy when I did (where skill is much more important that sail condition).

Now we have pretty much the whole fleet racing with new(ish) sails and there is no real difference between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'. My own boat is of 121,000 vintage and holds its own. I was showing well in our club Laser open (with a class legal sail) until my rustyness made me capsize a few times.

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Matt Jackson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 08 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by ColPrice2002

I'd agree that competition should make the sails cheaper - everything else being equal....

...Too much cost competition causes a drop in quality.

But I would rather have the choice of a range of sailmakers and/or quality than a single high-cost source of indifferent (or arguably worse) inconsistent quality.

Originally posted by ColPrice2002

What you need is a set of standard templates and a standard quality sail-cloth which the class association can rent to sailmakers. That should ensure eqivalent sails from different manufacturers.

But the templates will have some tolerance in them due to wear (even if they are electronic there is machine wear) so it then becomes a lottery if you get a good one.

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