I would have thought that unless you specifically say otherwise, your racing (assuming handicap here) is not raced under class rules as such, and therefore whilst you might have to word your rules more carefully (to stop "illeagal" modified boats being used without permission) then you should be OK.

Do you make sure any weight-equalised classes stick to their rules?

Unless you have a die hard sailor who insists on laying down the rules, then I don;t think this will be a problem. I personally think its a disadvantage but at least they are making the effort to get out on the water. If they win, well done to them.

I am sure you can put a clause in the Sailing Instructions for that,.

I believe class rules apply under the racing rules of sailing.

That is a good spot - will the UKLA give clubs permission to use replica Laser sails?

Personally, I think taking weight out of a weight-equalised boat (even for handicap racing) is grossly unsporting and a definte breach of the rules, unless the race officer is informed and the py corrected accordingly.

I would have thought that by entering a handicap event and accepting the PN the organising body gives your class of boat, you are by implication committed to abiding by the class rules, certainly as far as measurement and equipment goes. Otherwise, what's to stop someone racing, say, a Merlin with all the lead taken out and a 470 kite? So technically, I guess a Laser with a training sail isn't a Laser, so you're open to protest.

Having said that, why can't you run Lasers as two separate classes, with and without genuine sails, give them the same start and amalgamate the series results? Should remove the opportunity for protests. What do you all think?

I would suggest that non class compliant boats may compete for club handicap trophies (perhaps with a small handicap penalty) but not for th club class prizes.

Gordon

I suspect it is highly unlikley that any Merlins remove their lead for club racing.

I would think the main issues are:

- Use of replica sails
- Missing lead for weight equalised boats
- Too wide wings for weight equalised boats

The latter of these should be easy to see but of course you don't know how heavy the crew are, that said I don't believe any of the weight equalised classes to be bandits.

What interests me is that the rule really protects the commercial interests of the likes of Laser and Topper as I am sure there respective class assocations will not give clubs permission to use replica sails.

"What interests me is that the rule really protects the commercial interests of the likes of Laser and Topper as I am sure there respective class assocations will not give clubs permission to use replica sails."

The way round this is to consider Toppers or Lasers with replica sails as "Laser type" or "Topper type" boats not as one-design clss boats. They can then enter club handicap racing, but not one design races. If they do sail in the Laser or Topper fleet it should be made clear that they are not available for one-design prizes. By giving them a small handicap penalty it would be possible to run a Laser and Laser type handicap race. This would not be a problem for us as we already run the 3 Laser rigs as one Laser Handicap fleet.

Replica sails should be reserved for training and very low key club-racing.

Gordon

I believe that is an RS event SI not part of the RS class rules

I have been considering how to amend our club's Sailing Instructions to allow replica sails in [low key!] club racing and, prior to reading this thread, was proposing the following:

"2.7     Replica Sails: If a competitor wishes to take part in a Club series and/or cup race in a Single Manufacturer One Design (SMOD) with a non manufacturer provided sail, that competitor must obtain the prior approval of the relevant Class Captain (or, in the case of the Class Captain, the Sailing Secretary) to use such a sail.  RRS 87 shall not apply."

Is this adequate?  Can a club's SI's can overturn a RRS rule that prevents that Club's SI's overturning a Class Association rule?

In these times of credit cunch is it not better that people race with a "training"sail rather then be pushed out of the racing altogether,which may be the only reason why they are at the club anyway & so leave the club the club & becomes poorer for the loss!.

In the case of "training sails" there is usually NO advangage to sailing with one over an orginal other then price & as such I am happy to race & lose to them if they sailed better then me ( which is most days ).

Agree with Bert.  I can't see any issues with practice sails being used for club racing, surely we all want to see as many people sailing as possible.

The sails don't give any performance advantage and I have no issue with people using them.  I use a practice sail myself and have never had anyone complain to me about it.

The replica sails available at the moment may not give a performance advantage (but who knows?), but without some sort of rule where might it end?  A slightly flatter cut replica Laser sail for lakes? A very small, bit performance gaining, amount of roach in a Tooper sail? 

You can't have your cake and eat it.  If you buy a SMOD, there are pro's and cons.  One of the cons is that you don't get you pick your sailmaker.  I think I might start a new thread about this.

Interesting you should say that Rick as I remember a N12 sailor who said the first thing he does when he buys a new boat was take all the lead out. The justification being that 'it's bound to weigh more now than when it was measured'.

That sailor now sails a Merlin at...... WYC

Personally I think anyone who deliberately alters their boat in a way they know to be illegal in an attempt to gain an advantage is guilty of breaching rule 69. Using a replica sail does not fall into this category as the prime reason is cost not performance.

No one would want their practice sail to be cut differently to an official sail to gain any advantage. 

I use my practice sail so I can afford to sail lots with a reasonable sail (rather than the old rag I used to use for club racing).  I want it identical to my official sail so that what I learn in the practice sail is relevant.  Any difference in cut would make a practice sail not a practice sail.

When I sailed a one design, we always acknowledged that the one sailmaker to the class would be cheaper to the members than having several sailmakers - each developing their own ideas (and trying them out with the top helms - who then had subsidised sails).

The attraction of the one design was that with the hulls, spars and sails as near identical as possible, the deciding factor was the crew's ability.

The class assocition played an active role in keeping the sailmaker's quality acceptable (variation & longlevity).

Now I'm sailing a one-design hull - with the option of a mast/sail maker to suit the helm weight (Solo), and I don't see that the sails are that expensive.

The other boat we have (Merlin) has a number of top sailmekers, and these all seem competitive - maybe the competion is good.

If you aren't happy with the class sailmaker, (quality or cost) then the members have to push their association.

The decision is really up to the owners - if you want to sail a XXX dinghy and race, then should you comply with the class rules - or not?

Would you consider a non-measured hull to be "in-class"? - how about one that didn't measure?

Colin

Please bear in mind that this thread started life talking about replica sails which would measure as official sails if they had the "proper manufacturers stamp" & weather or not to allow them,

Not the cheating that can occur if a person has a mindset that allows alterations to the hull/weights of the kind of cheating that you would not tell ANYONE about.

I for one find the price of laser sails £430 plus batterns OR replica sails £205 with batterns to be a no brainer unless you are completing in the opens,Considering that the replicas do not allow extra speed/pointing/downwind/control over the orginals,they are what they say on the "tin" replicas!.

I also think that a lot of clubs could find a larger group of sailors that are on the "other side" if & when they apply this rule,Afteral quite a few clubs have a relaxed attude to this for club racing already & this allows good club racing & FUN FOR ALL.

So I brought a rooster 8.1 complete with a mast extender/sail/batterns /class assocation membership all delivered to my door for £350 so £430 for a 30 year old designed sail which has sold over 190,000 hulls & sails on new boats plus all the replacment sails,I think that the R&D has been repayed by now & a bit of price adjustment MIGHT be in order.Then perhaps rule 87 would never have been written.

I would think if its a handicap race, then you should be able to use anything, but if you are not carrying the lead, or have wider wings, then it may be reasonable to adjust your handicap. If any performance advantage is likely, or becomes apparent, then it should be discussed openly.

If its a class race then it's a grey area. Another, more often broken class rule is the requirement to be  a member of the association.

Aren't there boats which race under local rules for club events and association rules for national/open events?

I think if you are using a replica sail and get chucked out of a club laser series, you have probably chosen the wrong club. Laser class at an open regatta? depends on the level? Laser open? official sail

At one time I was involved in running a SMOD class, we researched opening to multiple sailmakers and it definitely was the case that we could get cheaper sails by restricting the class to a single sailmaker, thereby guaranteeing that sailmaker an annual volume of sales. Win-win.

However this assumes that the class can put price pressure on the sailmaker, which clearly isn't happening in the Laser's case. There has to be the threat that the class can take its business elsewhere.

To me this is counter-intuitive. I design mechanical parts (mouldings, castings, pressings etc) which we used to only have made at a single Polish sub-contractor who obviously got all the volume. When we started assembly in China and Mexico, the prices got keener everywhere despite the lower volume at each location.

That's competition for you, with a single source there isn't any incentive for the manufacturer to find a cheaper source of materials or to incorporate improved techniques to get cost out and you just keep paying the same price forever (and accept manufacturers cost inreases) as there is nothing to benchmark against.

Matt,

I'd agree that competition should make the sails cheaper - everything else being equal.

I buy parts for a "classic" car. Some of the parts will fit exactl, but the quality is poor and they need regular replacement - yet the original lasted for 30+ years - now it's 30 months.

Too much cost competition causes a drop in quality.

With sails - look at the Merlin fleet. Each sailmaker is competing to make the fastest shape because that means more sales. Obviously, this isn't a free exercise, so the costs come from the purchasers.

What you need is a set of standard templates and a standard quality sail-cloth which the class association can rent to sailmakers. That should ensure eqivalent sails from different manufacturers.

Colin

James,

Why do you feel a need to write a S.I. to do this ?  Can;'t you just rely on the long established practice in club racing that you do not protest out beginners for infringements to measurement rules (or other minor rule infringements).  You could also extend this to have a gentlemens agreement among the more experienced sailors to use your practice sails for normal club racing.  After all these rules can only be enforced by taking someone to a protest.

Writing this down for everyone to see could well mean that Class Associations may start thinking of actions they can take to get their equipment rules applied.  The obvious action I can think of is removing any Class Association events from your club.  Do you really want to spark off a war between clubs and class associations ?

If the members of this forum really feel strongly about this issue isn't it time they went along to their class AGM with some rule change proposals.  I am sure many class associations would appreciate an opportunity to properly debate these issues with club sailors.

Mike

Mike,

I don't think any class is going to take action against any club for things like this. Being a member of the same club as James (and also being on the sailing committee with him) I know the background of this. There are a very small minority of members who are resistant to this, that is their right. The majority view however is to allow the replica sails. This is just a way to prevent arguments breaking out over them. As it is the SI was not actually valid anyway as the current RRS 2005-2008 does prohibit this kind of SI already it is just not as clear.

What I believ we are going to do is create a 'local' class of a Laser type boat which has identical rules as the international Laser class with the exception of the sail. The sail must however be approved by the Laser fleet captain (to prevent people turning up with something wierd and wonderful). We all like the idea of the Laser which is every boat is the same, we just want to make it more affordable to those who cannot afford to spend £430 a year to buy a new sail.

Just a quick comparison here. I used to sail a Blaze, a mainsail for that was just over £500. This was a sail that has evolved and uses the latest cloths. I have no bones about paying for one of those because I can see where my money has gone.

Paul

Not sure there Paul, my mate recently turned up at the final wessex laser travellers event of the year in an old boat with a sail that was 15 years old, it was magnolia in colour (the sail) batten flutter galore and tbh i wouldnt blow my nose with it.  He smoked the first race and came second overall, the standard of the fleet was apparantly high.  (i came mid fleet, which i was chuffeed about as i had only just stepped back into a laser after a 12 year break)  Now you could argue that if he had a new sail and boat he would of won, and you would probably be right.  But it just shows that its the nut on the tiller and not always the gear. 

For the record i'm for club racing with replica sails as i agree that the laser sail is over priced, if it were me i would buy a new laser sail for open events and use a replica or old sail for club racing/training.  You should get a good life 2years plus out of  a laser that way.

But I would rather have the choice of a range of sailmakers and/or quality than a single high-cost source of indifferent (or arguably worse) inconsistent quality.

But the templates will have some tolerance in them due to wear (even if they are electronic there is machine wear) so it then becomes a lottery if you get a good one.