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I know you all like a rules tangle..
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: I know you all like a rules tangle..
    Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:54am
I sail on a twenty acre pool, using seven buoys, to make decent length laps we use every buoy, some of them are set quite close to the bank, to make rounding more interesting, similar to sand traps and bends on a golf course, have never put myself in this position, I would allow someone to play through, if they were that bothered.
Robert
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The Q View Drop Down
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Posts: 126 		Post Options Post Options   Quote The Q Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:57am
Originally posted by 423zero

I would be disappointed in myself if I found myself to be either leeward or windward boat, if I was windward boat I would have been looking out for other boats and would have already moved over. The fact both boats knew the water, shows to me that leeward boat was being tactical. (How did the two boats get to where they were, was windward boat overtaking?)
and there are four  other classes of boats to add to this....


Edited by The Q - 21 Mar 22 at 11:04am
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The Q View Drop Down
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Posts: 126 		Post Options Post Options   Quote The Q Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 11:00am
imagine this lot when we start going the other way.

100 -150 boats plus tourists in the hire motor boats, all on 1.5 miles of river you can see how narrow it is.. 
The chances of sailing from the start line to Buoy 4 without a hail of water or room to tack are very slim...
Oh and that's a reasonably wide bit, if you try the 3 Rivers Race, the river Ant is 50ft wide and we have over 100 boats sail it from 14ft dinghies to 40ft broads cruisers

3 Rivers Race 28-29 May 2022 entries still open if you want to enter for a close quarter sailing challenge here. Home (3rr.uk)

on the River Ant, during the 3RR  unfortunately only long tacks on view in the video below and their spaced out a bit...
https://youtu.be/WOpGhAqFBqg



Edited by The Q - 21 Mar 22 at 11:29am
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 11:11am
Looks exciting, not my cup of tea though, obviously I have been in cramped conditions, but will try to get clear at the first opportunity.
Robert
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Posts: 126 		Post Options Post Options   Quote The Q Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 11:24am
Originally posted by 423zero

Looks exciting, not my cup of tea though, obviously I have been in cramped conditions, but will try to get clear at the first opportunity.
I get bored on big open waters, playing follow the leader is a lot less interesting , than when you know they can run up behind the earlier fleet and you get the opportunity to catch up..

With this type of sailing it's a case of looking ahead, at the next group of boats and predicting where they are likely to tack, and what obstructions may impede them. You then try and plot a course in your brain where to be . This often means an unfavourable tack to start with  to be in the right place when you get to them..

For instance with the Yeoman fleet coming towards you in the Picture, you set yourself up to be just tacking off the right hand back as they arrive so you are on, close hauled starboard, to cross through them....
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by Bandin

To clarify.. the windward boat did call 'You Tack'.

The issue is that the leeward boat is adamant that he should have not been forced to duck behind the windward boat and that the windward boat should have tacked. The windward boat disagrees and believes the fact the leeward boat had space to tack and duck behind was sufficient. 


Ah, well in that case its "go and read the definitions": failure to do so is an all too common problem.

Leeward is obliged to tack, windward is obliged to give room. So what is room?

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.


So the obligations are that the tacking boat is obliged to keep clear, but the windward boat is required to give her enough room to do so. If there's no collision and the tacking boat was able to avoid without "unseamanlike" actions then everyone is good. This is covered in Case 35 in the case book.


CASE 35
Rule 20.2(c), Room to Tack at an Obstruction: Responding When a boat is hailed for room to tack at an obstruction and replies ‘You tack’, and the hailing boat is then able to tack and avoid the hailed boat in a seamanlike way, the hailed boat has complied with rule 20.2(c).
Facts
As two close-hauled boats approached a shore, L hailed W for room to tack. W replied ‘You tack’ and L then tacked immediately. After tacking, L bore away in a seamanlike way and passed under W’s stern, which she cleared by three feet (1 m) or more. L protested W under rule 20.2(c). The boats were 15 feet (4.5 m) in length and the wind was moderate. The protest committee decided that W failed to give room as required by rule 20.2(c) and disqualified her. W appealed.

Decision
W’s appeal is upheld, and she is to be reinstated. L’s actions showed that she had room to tack and avoid W. W therefore met her obligation under rule 20.2(c).




Edited by JimC - 21 Mar 22 at 12:48pm
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by 423zero

I sail on a twenty acre pool, using seven buoys, to make decent length laps we use every buoy, some of them are set quite close to the bank, to make rounding more interesting, similar to sand traps and bends on a golf course, have never put myself in this position, I would allow someone to play through, if they were that bothered.

Mmm that is on the smallish side. For prospective I sail on eight acres and we have nine buoys  Smile
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 1:09pm
Weirdest place I have sailed on is Banbury Cross, like a swimming pool, totally enclosed with concrete and concrete bottom, you can't get near the sides, concrete slopes up to wall, similar angle to a slipway, but the slipways are the steepest I have ever seen.
Robert
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The Q View Drop Down
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Posts: 126 		Post Options Post Options   Quote The Q Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 1:33pm
I think the Smallest I've ever sailed on sailed on was Shotwick Lake (near Chester) which IIRC is between 3 and 4 Acres..

Whereas here on this bit of the Norfolk Broads, when we are not on the Rivers, my club sails on Black Horse Broad which is around 7 acres..( the sailable bit that is )



Edited by The Q - 21 Mar 22 at 1:33pm
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ohFFsake View Drop Down
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Posts: 219 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 22 at 2:34pm
So L hailed for room to tack, W replied "You Tack".

It is perhaps worth noting that the hail of "You Tack" does not give L right of way. L remains keep clear boat throughout the entire exchange, the only onus rule 19 places on W is to give L room "to tack and avoid her". Note that L has to do the avoiding, not W.

So if L tacks when instructed to do so, then promptly bears away in a seamanlike manner to avoid W who maintains a steady course, no rule is broken. The very act of keeping clear demonstrates that sufficient room for them to do must have been given.
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