I know you all like a rules tangle..
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13911
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 12:27am
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Topic: I know you all like a rules tangle..
Posted By: Bandin
Subject: I know you all like a rules tangle..
Date Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 9:12pm
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So today.. Two boats side by side both close hauled sailing on starboard.. about a boat lengths between them The leeward boat got a little too close to an outcrop ahead and called for room to tack, then tacked. The windward boat didnt change course and said there was enough room for the leeward boat to dip behind, which he did. So who was right? Should the windward boat have tacked as requested, or was he correct in not tacking as the leeward boat was able to sail below him without any collision??
I know the rules say you have to keep clear when requested, but the requestee had room to sail behind him. This caused quite a discussion post race and would love to see others views. |
Replies:
Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 9:20pm
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If I remember correctly, it’s one of the few compulsory hails in the rule book. The leeward boat hails for room to tack and the windward boat must either tack immediately or hail ‘You tack’ and is then compelled to keep clear. ------------- OK 2249 D-1 138 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 9:40pm
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If he had room to tack behind, why did he request room to tack? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 9:42pm
Yep. Its a safety thing. Windward must either tack, or say "you tack" in which case they must give room. There are no other choices. If windward thinks the hail is unnecessary then their only recourse is to protest.
So if windward immediately hailed back "you tack" then all rules were obeyed, since leeward was given room to avoid. If windward didn't respond in the correct way then they technically broke 20.2c. If leeward is in any doubt about whether there's enough room to tack they may as well hail, because windward can always hail you tack, and it means leeward is covered if someone has misjudged it. Its fairly worrying that you had a post race discussion on one of the most important safety rules in the book! |
Posted By: Bandin
Date Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 10:10pm
Yep.. there'll be some sleepless sailors tonight worried sick.  The discussion was due to the fact the leeward boat called for room to tack, yet had room to tack and dip behind the windward boat which did not alter course. Post race the leeward boat said the windward boat should have tacked regardless.. the windward boat said the leeward boat had room to tack.
So are you saying you have to tack? even if you believe the call is false, then protest? Seems a bit daft. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 10:36pm
| You have to either tack or hail back "you tack", and in the latter case you have to give the other boat room. |
Posted By: Bandin
Date Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 10:45pm
Exactly.. so does 'room' include holding your course and the other boat successfully dipping behind you? The leeward boat says no.. the windward boat says yes.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 11:03pm
| Leeward managed to tack without hitting windward, so there must have been (or windward gave) room to tack… |
Posted By: Old bloke
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 6:48am
| Depending on the circumstances a tack and immediate hard bear away is not guaranteed to be done successfully and if you don't get it quite right there is no safe exit and a T- boned boat. I don't think it is unreasonable to want a margin of error |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 7:43am
To be fair to him at some clubs this comes up every race, at others it may never really crop up due to where they sail.
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Posted By: The Q
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 8:17am
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We have calls for tacking off the bank every week and the above situation often occurs. Because the outer boat didn't reply with "You Tack" and sailed on regardless, The outer boat is at fault and due a penalty . He could chose / have chosen to protest a needless call for water, but that wouldn't stop his being given a penalty. Responding "YOU TACK" or tacking themselves is a MUST DO. Unfortunately over the years I have seen many "Tactical" calls for water, with the inner boat likely to deliberately to not tack at their best and tap the outer with their bow, if given a " You Tack" response. Only all round video cameras can prevent this.. The worst situation I've ever seen, both sides of the fleet were calling for water off the river banks, and the middle of the fleet was calling for water round the buoy.. Me I, was behind... as the majority of the fleet sailed on, unable to turn, me and a couple of others, swept round the buoy leaving them to sort it out.. I'm glad I wasn't on the Protest committee that day... ------------- Still sailing in circles |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 8:22am
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The “room to tack” call can be a ploy to maintain tactical advantage by forcing the windward boat to tack, so compelling the windward boat to tack following the call would ruin the game. Two variants, are that the leeward boat calls, windward boat tacks, but leeward boat caries on a bit further before tacking. The other, that the leeward boat calls when it had room to tack and tack back, but panics the windward boat to tack. Generally the windward boat is in a better position to judge the “you tack” call than the leeward helm, who would have to look over his/her shoulder ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 8:32am
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The windward / outer boat has to respond (either by tacking or hailing 'you tack') as already covered. Of course on port tack it's less of an issue, but if the boat calling for room to tack ends up on port, then they are keep clear boat.
Sometimes the inside boat calls for room to tack, when they really have space to tack and duck. Or when the outside boat is far enough away that they have space to tack, then tack back again on to starboard. But in both instances it's not uncommon for the inside boat to think the hail 'room to tack' gives then rights to sail away from the bank on port as far as they would like. |
Posted By: Bandin
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 8:54am
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To clarify.. the windward boat did call 'You Tack'. The issue is that the leeward boat is adamant that he should have not been forced to duck behind the windward boat and that the windward boat should have tacked. The windward boat disagrees and believes the fact the leeward boat had space to tack and duck behind was sufficient.
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Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 9:32am
I believe the onus would be on the windward boat to prove they gave enough room for the leeward boat to tack and duck them, remembering that the definition of room is not the minimum space required to manoeuvre, but the space required to do so in a 'seamanlike manner'. ------------- OK 2249 D-1 138 |
Posted By: Jon Meadowcroft
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 9:46am
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No onus on anyone to do anything as far as I can see in RRS. Facts found: Both boats hailed correctly Leeward boat tacked No collision So the base assumption has to be that there was indeed room for leeward boat to tack and avoid the obstruction. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:02am
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I would be disappointed in myself if I found myself to be either leeward or windward boat, if I was windward boat I would have been looking out for other boats and would have already moved over. The fact both boats knew the water, shows to me that leeward boat was being tactical. (How did the two boats get to where they were, was windward boat overtaking?) ------------- Robert |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:31am
You might find an hour or two on the Green at Cowes Week educational.
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Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:41am
I can only think you dont sail on a river or on a a confined puddle.  I learned to sail on a river and now sail on a tiny lake . This situation has happened many times in every club race I have ever taken part in. It’s part and parcel of sailing on confined waters with loads of marks on the course , you have to use every cm of water  ------------- |
Posted By: Bandin
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:45am
I was ahead looking back but this was pretty much the situation.. wind was horrid yesterday, swinging 90deg constantly.
There was no real protest other than a little grumbling on the part of the leeward boat but he (and others post race) were adamant windward was obliged to tack once called, whilst I and a couple who saw from behind disagreed and concluded leeward boat had plenty of space to tack and once tacked it was port/starboard so no issue. Leeward was annoyed he had to duck windward boat.  |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:54am
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I sail on a twenty acre pool, using seven buoys, to make decent length laps we use every buoy, some of them are set quite close to the bank, to make rounding more interesting, similar to sand traps and bends on a golf course, have never put myself in this position, I would allow someone to play through, if they were that bothered. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: The Q
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:57am
and there are four other classes of boats to add to this....
------------- Still sailing in circles |
Posted By: The Q
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 11:00am
imagine this lot when we start going the other way. 100 -150 boats plus tourists in the hire motor boats, all on 1.5 miles of river you can see how narrow it is.. The chances of sailing from the start line to Buoy 4 without a hail of water or room to tack are very slim... Oh and that's a reasonably wide bit, if you try the 3 Rivers Race, the river Ant is 50ft wide and we have over 100 boats sail it from 14ft dinghies to 40ft broads cruisers 3 Rivers Race 28-29 May 2022 entries still open if you want to enter for a close quarter sailing challenge here. http://www.3rr.uk/" rel="nofollow - Home (3rr.uk) on the River Ant, during the 3RR unfortunately only long tacks on view in the video below and their spaced out a bit... https://youtu.be/WOpGhAqFBqg ------------- Still sailing in circles |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 11:11am
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Looks exciting, not my cup of tea though, obviously I have been in cramped conditions, but will try to get clear at the first opportunity. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: The Q
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 11:24am
I get bored on big open waters, playing follow the leader is a lot less interesting , than when you know they can run up behind the earlier fleet and you get the opportunity to catch up.. With this type of sailing it's a case of looking ahead, at the next group of boats and predicting where they are likely to tack, and what obstructions may impede them. You then try and plot a course in your brain where to be . This often means an unfavourable tack to start with to be in the right place when you get to them.. For instance with the Yeoman fleet coming towards you in the Picture, you set yourself up to be just tacking off the right hand back as they arrive so you are on, close hauled starboard, to cross through them.... ------------- Still sailing in circles |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 12:44pm
Ah, well in that case its "go and read the definitions": failure to do so is an all too common problem. Leeward is obliged to tack, windward is obliged to give room. So what is room?
So the obligations are that the tacking boat is obliged to keep clear, but the windward boat is required to give her enough room to do so. If there's no collision and the tacking boat was able to avoid without "unseamanlike" actions then everyone is good. This is covered in Case 35 in the case book.
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Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 12:48pm
Mmm that is on the smallish side. For prospective I sail on eight acres and we have nine buoys ------------- |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 1:09pm
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Weirdest place I have sailed on is Banbury Cross, like a swimming pool, totally enclosed with concrete and concrete bottom, you can't get near the sides, concrete slopes up to wall, similar angle to a slipway, but the slipways are the steepest I have ever seen. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: The Q
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 1:33pm
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I think the Smallest I've ever sailed on sailed on was Shotwick Lake (near Chester) which IIRC is between 3 and 4 Acres.. Whereas here on this bit of the Norfolk Broads, when we are not on the Rivers, my club sails on Black Horse Broad which is around 7 acres..( the sailable bit that is ) ------------- Still sailing in circles |
Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 28 Mar 22 at 2:34pm
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So L hailed for room to tack, W replied "You Tack". It is perhaps worth noting that the hail of "You Tack" does not give L right of way. L remains keep clear boat throughout the entire exchange, the only onus rule 19 places on W is to give L room "to tack and avoid her". Note that L has to do the avoiding, not W.
So if L tacks when instructed to do so, then promptly bears away in a seamanlike manner to avoid W who maintains a steady course, no rule is broken. The very act of keeping clear demonstrates that sufficient room for them to do must have been given. |