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Do you think that the PY Handicap System works?
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Poll Question: Do you think that the PY Handicap System works?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
20 [44.44%]
18 [40.00%]
3 [6.67%]
1 [2.22%]
3 [6.67%]
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Do you think that the PY Handicap System works?
    Posted: 16 Apr 21 at 1:24pm
A modest level of intervention could well create more problems than it solves. Suddenly "well, that can't be right" when a Streaker comes out faster than a Solo cascades down the system. The Streaker yardstick is bumped up a little, which now puts it out of kilter with a Radial, say, so you tweak the Radial, which now doesn't fit well with the Lightning, etc, etc.

One thing that could be done earlier is switching off changes, maybe? So,for example the Laser 2 has been steady for a decade, then suddenly numbers start to change as returns plummet. Seems to me there is a case for putting changes on hold until more returns are gathered over a couple of years.
But maybe again that has ramifications which affect it against other classes which have never had international racing and top end helms, so mid fleet club racers are punished.
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 21 at 1:24pm
I remember that the Westin Grand Slam was a handicap event that split the fleets into PY bands and separated out Assymetrics, Cats and foiling Moths ... this is probably the way to go if you have sufficient numbers.  However the key takeaways are that the anomalies tend to get resolved over a series, the accuracy implied by four digit PY numbers is unrealistic, the PY bandit might actually be a better sailor than you
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NickM99 View Drop Down
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Posts: 145 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NickM99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 21 at 10:43am
Given the polling so far, there must be some more controversial topics to discuss?
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patj View Drop Down
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Posts: 643 		Post Options Post Options   Quote patj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 21 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by Rupert


One thing that could be done earlier is switching off changes, maybe? So,for example the Laser 2 has been steady for a decade, then suddenly numbers start to change as returns plummet. Seems to me there is a case for putting changes on hold until more returns are gathered over a couple of years.

I see these as classes where popularity with serious racers has declined and they are more often sailed by those newer to racing and therefore the handicap represents the crew skill. This also applies to Mirrors and several other classes that have received a points increase, including Lasers since newbies get told "get a Laser" as they are raced everywhere and they then race it mid to low end of the fleet before selling it for a boat that suits them better.

But also the problem with the PY system is how clubs apply it. Many won't touch the numbers, others go a bit too far - currently our club gives +20 points for having a spinnaker even though they can be used to great advantage as proven by the Kestrels.  
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 21 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by patj

But also the problem with the PY system is how clubs apply it. Many won't touch the numbers, others go a bit too far - currently our club gives +20 points for having a spinnaker even though they can be used to great advantage as proven by the Kestrels.  

Do you mean +20 for not using the kite? I'd have though a 40 point difference between using a kite or not but not many classes offer it as a optional extra.
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 21 at 8:39am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by patj

But also the problem with the PY system is how clubs apply it. Many won't touch the numbers, others go a bit too far - currently our club gives +20 points for having a spinnaker even though they can be used to great advantage as proven by the Kestrels.  

Do you mean +20 for not using the kite? I'd have though a 40 point difference between using a kite or not but not many classes offer it as a optional extra.

No, its a 20 point benefit even if using it. It stems from a long time back when there weren't so many trees around the pond and you could do reaching (rather than upwind/downwind as it is now) and spinnaker boats were seriously hampered by the lack of space. They got some extra points to give them a chance. Still happens now. We used to give extra points for double-handers as well as the water being restricted and shifty meant they were disadvantaged compared to singlehanders. Not sure that is still in place though. However the Kestrels as mentioned by Pat are not sailed that well apart from one of them and to be honest they still need the 20 points to be up the front. The Albacore Pat sails will go well here as they are great upwind/downwind and can win races.
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 21 at 8:41am
In otherwords we as a club modify the PY numbers to match our water, which is the point of the system. Not perfect but does make things a little more even. 
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 21 at 11:09am
Originally posted by maxibuddah

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by patj

But also the problem with the PY system is how clubs apply it. Many won't touch the numbers, others go a bit too far - currently our club gives +20 points for having a spinnaker even though they can be used to great advantage as proven by the Kestrels.  

Do you mean +20 for not using the kite? I'd have though a 40 point difference between using a kite or not but not many classes offer it as a optional extra.

No, its a 20 point benefit even if using it. It stems from a long time back when there weren't so many trees around the pond and you could do reaching (rather than upwind/downwind as it is now) and spinnaker boats were seriously hampered by the lack of space. They got some extra points to give them a chance. Still happens now. We used to give extra points for double-handers as well as the water being restricted and shifty meant they were disadvantaged compared to singlehanders. Not sure that is still in place though. However the Kestrels as mentioned by Pat are not sailed that well apart from one of them and to be honest they still need the 20 points to be up the front. The Albacore Pat sails will go well here as they are great upwind/downwind and can win races.

Right I understand. +20 sounds about right then fir spinnaker boats on very restricted water. Simpler the better (which is why I both the Blaze after 10 years sailing the Spics badly  Embarrassed)
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 21 at 11:27am
That said, Chris Hampe got his Canoe around the pond a couple of years ago no problem - https://youtu.be/xEelmn6457Q
I make a small guest appearance in my Finn in the background


Edited by maxibuddah - 20 Apr 21 at 11:27am
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