If it didn't I don't think it would have such universal acceptance, we see on here how vocal people are about it and pretty much every club has someone who is good with these sorts of numbers.

Things can only be said to "work" by all if there are universally agreed and transparent objectives.

This is true*, and the adjustments made for our medium lake give the Solo +10 and the Blaze +4 for a difference of 115 points. Common sense  suggests the Solo would be better suited to a small flukey lake than a Blaze...

* FWIW I'll never sail the Spice to it's handicap (lacking the skillset) but AFAIK it never had a primary number and the experimental number was never moved from the 930 suggested by the builder. Not really surprising with only about 65 boats built. Despite it's two trapezes it's rated a fraction slower than an ISO (Spice has a bigger kite but only very slightly more white sail area) probably 'cos it's 500mm shorter and, I guess, a little less 'skiffy'.

Crew ability 

Boat variation in the class, old wooden boat with tin masts are the same as latest plastic fantastics with carbon mast and updated kit.

Where you sail

The course 

The wind on that day

If you want to prove your the best do all the open meetings for your class. Honest (to themselves) Sunday warriors know if they had a good race and if they are improving year on year. 

In the last 18  months I have moved from a knackered wooden Streaker, to full rig Laser and now Radial. As I’m under weight for the Laser I thought I’d be a bandit on our inland lake but actually feel I’m doing better in the Radial, that said I’m honest and other variables are part of the mix also.

I feel it is better to sail a boat you enjoy sailing that fits in with a competitive fleet at you club, the fact that the PY system allows me to sail against multiple world champions, my daughter, kids in optimists and novices in the same race is unique in sport and pretty awesome.

Yes, I am aware. My home club is transparent WRT PN adjustments and adjusts numbers using the RYA recommendations only. A quick trawl of a few open sea clubs suggests that very few Solos are sailed on the sea which makes the +10 applied to them on my small lake even more of a surprise (Great Lakes use the Blaze RYA number unchanged but +10 for the Solo).

As I have said in other PY discussions the number of returns is very low in statistical terms with only 2 out of 73 classes on the Primary and Experimental Yardstick lists having statistically useful returns (Laser with 28k+ and Solo with 21k son the Solo number should be a banker like the Laser). Of the rest only 7 classes have more than 3k races and none more than 10k so the PYC are doing the best they can with limited statistics for most classes.

I must admit it seems odd. I think this is always relative though, and actually a well sailed Solo vs a well sailed Enterprise on a small lake would probably support the current PY numbers across a normal series. Weird conditions or lots of windward/leeward work would favour the Solo, lots of reaches in medium winds would favour the Ent.

Or the Solos at the club are being sailed appallingly.

When comparing apples and oranges you have to accept that both taste nice at some point if you like them, but not necessarily at the same level of ripeness.

Err the fact is that ‘ bunch of overweight muppets sailing slowly inland ‘ are over 90% of people sailing . 

That’s why the system works for the vast majority of people at the vast majority locations. 

Class racing is the cure, but good luck finding it unless you're prepared to travel.

That said, last time I saw a 505 there was in the late '60s  (that said I hadn't really sailed there between 1970 and 2018). We do get the odd 'unsuitable boat' (we has an 800 flogging up and down on Sunday and there was a Boss and a Musto on the boat park last year but at 1 mile long and ½ mile wide at the widest it's hard to compare it with the likes of Graham and Rutland.

Or sail either a L@ser or Solo. Actually class racing is not hard to find if you are happy to sail whatever boat is popular in your location, sadly Blaze strongholds are a bit far for me on a Wednesday night.

Actually I do know it, I sailed a Heron and later an OK at Leigh SC when Leigh and Lowton were still separate clubs in the '60s (I was in my mid/late teens). Lowton had IIRC 505s and Fireballs, Solos, GPs and Grads amongst others, I think we had Herons, OKs, Enterprises, GPs and Merlins (I still lust after a merlin to this day). My dad and I moved clubs along with the rest of the OK fleet around '68 for some reason but I sailed a few windsurfing opens there in the '80s and a couple of races in the open winter series with #2 son in my old Ent during the 90s. I rejoined late in in 2016 in time for the Winter racing in the Blaze.

But you can add a little bit of clarity by asking some follow up questions!

Such as....

Does the PY system work as intended?

Concensus seem to be that it does...

Are some of the problems with the PY system in how it is being used?

Again, looking at the answers to date, some of the issues are undoubtedly how the PY system is being applied at various locations

Are there any simple fixes to the current system?

Almost certainly yes......

Changes for local conditions

Don't expect it to do too much

Understand and address anomolies

Accept the inherent weaknesses in the current set up

Make current set up more transparent

This though still begs a couple more highly important perspectives! Given the technology we now have at our command, could  a better/fairer, more intuitive handicap system be developed?

Personally, I think the answer to that would have to be a 'qualified yes....BUT...

Is there the interest/appetite/desire..need even for even the first steps to be taken, when on looping back to the very first point, what we have now, cheap, simple, understood  by (nearly) all probably gets you the right results 80% of the time. With the wider world still struggling to emerge from lockdown, with the ever present risk that things could still go awry again - as they are elsewhere, what I see is the desire to cut the crap and go sailing.

Until there is a broad based groundswell of interest in the creation of something better, that gets all the stakeholders together - not to come up with a solution but first just to ask what they want any new system to do, this will remain a mere talking point on forums like this!

Dougal

Think the answer is probably yes but not by the 90to 10 % figure I used earlier. A quick count up on y&y club finder would give you a rough idea. 

But as you well know it’s not as simple as that it’s also affected by other things with in that percentage.

1) the percentage of sea clubs doing returns compared to the number of inland clubs doing returns. 

2) The number of races within those returns. Do sea clubs lose more races to bad weather /tides etc ?

3) Also most inland clubs are sailing all year round and most sea clubs don’t , so that also affects returns as inland clubs have more returns to send in .

To sum up this rambling post lol.

Do I think the number of clubs is 10 to 1 in favour of inland clubs ,PROBABLY  NO.

Do I think the number of sailors is 10 to 1 in favour of inland clubs, POSSIBLY YES 

Do I think the number of py returns is 10 to 1 favour of inland clubs, YES.

Do I think the py system works well for over 90% of sailors , YES YES YES . 

D

I see these as classes where popularity with serious racers has declined and they are more often sailed by those newer to racing and therefore the handicap represents the crew skill. This also applies to Mirrors and several other classes that have received a points increase, including Lasers since newbies get told "get a Laser" as they are raced everywhere and they then race it mid to low end of the fleet before selling it for a boat that suits them better.

But also the problem with the PY system is how clubs apply it. Many won't touch the numbers, others go a bit too far - currently our club gives +20 points for having a spinnaker even though they can be used to great advantage as proven by the Kestrels.  

Do you mean +20 for not using the kite? I'd have though a 40 point difference between using a kite or not but not many classes offer it as a optional extra.

No, its a 20 point benefit even if using it. It stems from a long time back when there weren't so many trees around the pond and you could do reaching (rather than upwind/downwind as it is now) and spinnaker boats were seriously hampered by the lack of space. They got some extra points to give them a chance. Still happens now. We used to give extra points for double-handers as well as the water being restricted and shifty meant they were disadvantaged compared to singlehanders. Not sure that is still in place though. However the Kestrels as mentioned by Pat are not sailed that well apart from one of them and to be honest they still need the 20 points to be up the front. The Albacore Pat sails will go well here as they are great upwind/downwind and can win races.

Right I understand. +20 sounds about right then fir spinnaker boats on very restricted water. Simpler the better (which is why I both the Blaze after 10 years sailing the Spics badly )

I make a small guest appearance in my Finn in the background