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Kev M View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 05 Dec 11
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Posts: 346 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Kev M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ever wish you hadn't?
    Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 9:01pm
It is from a Phantom.  It looks like a Winder from their photos on the P&B site.  Mine is one of the very first epoxy Phantoms (1098), not sure what age but it wouldn't surprise me if this was the time people started experimenting with carbon tillers.  The rest of the finish on it is just as shocking as the bodged repair except those bits don't look like a repair, they look original.

Messing around with a proper carbon repair with vac bags and all that seems more hassle than it's worth.  I can't see there being any real structural load in this area except for when pulling the rudder down so I'm thinking of just cleaning the gunk out, filling it, shaping it and putting the plate back on.  All within my meager abilities.  The trouble is I'm not sure what material to use.

Someone on the Phantom forum recommended Spabond 345 to fill the gap but I can't find anyone who sells it except for in the USA.

I've not done a repair like this before so recommendation on materials to byuy by name would be appreciated over generic resin & microfibre etc.  I'm hoping I can just buy a kit of something that will contain everything I need.

The alternative is I take it to Hartley's but it probably won't be any cheaper and where's the satisfaction in that eh?!
Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980.
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 17 Nov 08
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Posts: 997 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 9:06pm
Originally posted by Kev M

It is from a Phantom.  It looks like a Winder from their photos on the P&B site.  Mine is one of the very first epoxy Phantoms (1098), not sure what age but it wouldn't surprise me if this was the time people started experimenting with carbon tillers.  The rest of the finish on it is just as shocking as the bodged repair except those bits don't look like a repair, they look original.

Messing around with a proper carbon repair with vac bags and all that seems more hassle than it's worth.  I can't see there being any real structural load in this area except for when pulling the rudder down so I'm thinking of just cleaning the gunk out, filling it, shaping it and putting the plate back on.  All within my meager abilities.  The trouble is I'm not sure what material to use.

Someone on the Phantom forum recommended Spabond 345 to fill the gap but I can't find anyone who sells it except for in the USA.

I've not done a repair like this before so recommendation on materials to byuy by name would be appreciated over generic resin & microfibre etc.  I'm hoping I can just buy a kit of something that will contain everything I need.

The alternative is I take it to Hartley's but it probably won't be any cheaper and where's the satisfaction in that eh?!


Get spabond 345 from Marineware. Its what they bond AC and VOR bulkheads in with. Expensive (£40 plus for a tube) but you can count on it being 50% stronger in shear in real terms than "normal" epoxy for secondary bonds and it is rubber toughened so more shock resistant. Use the heatgun liberally when mixing it as its very viscous and even the fast stuff takes hours to go off. Black so doesn't make carbon work look crap.
Dan
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Time Lord View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 03 Dec 13
Location: Warwickshire
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Posts: 301 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Time Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 9:48pm
Talk to Dave Winder at Winder Boats. He will probably be able to tell you what the original material is/was.

You also need an upstand block to go into the hole and around which your rudder blade uphaul should run. If you look in the P & B online shop under Allen blocks, probably an upstand block 88-A4968 but have feeling that Winders use another one - ask.

Probably also worth asking him about the cost of repair - he repaired a Merlin centreboard of mine which was around 15 years old and the cost was modest.
Merlin Rocket 3609
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Time Lord View Drop Down
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Far too distracted from work


Joined: 03 Dec 13
Location: Warwickshire
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Posts: 301 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Time Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 10:43pm
Whoops. Apologies - said uphaul when I meant downhaul - this is used to keep the rudder blade down. Getting it up usually involves leaning over the back and lifting the blade up.
Merlin Rocket 3609
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Kev M View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 05 Dec 11
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Posts: 346 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Kev M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 14 at 7:20pm
So.  This one is still dragging on, mainly due to my lack of free time and resistance to paying someone else to do the work.

I asked my local chandlers to get me a price for some SP345 seeing as they stock other Spabond products.  They came back with a price of £1000 and told me I'd need a special gun for it. I didn't waste any more time with this.  

Digging around a bit more is this shopping list any good?

Do I want powder or microfibres?
Some colour pigment so that it doesn't stick out like a bodge job - http://www.carbonology.com/epoxy-pigment-black-p-244.html

I was thinking that instead of filling inside and then trying to put self tapping screws into the resin like it did before to hold the block and plate on it might be better to bolt the block to the plate and then bond the plate to the tiller and add a couple of strips of glass tape to reinforce it.

Does that sound like it'd work and is doable by someone with little composites experience?
Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980.
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Time Lord View Drop Down
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Far too distracted from work


Joined: 03 Dec 13
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Posts: 301 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Time Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 14 at 9:34pm
Can take a Photo of that area on my Winder stock if that would be of help. Let me know.
Merlin Rocket 3609
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Kev M View Drop Down
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Posts: 346 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Kev M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 14 at 10:11pm
Thanks, I'm fine with how it fits together, I'm just unsure of what materials should be used for the repair.
Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Really should get out more
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Joined: 17 May 04
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Posts: 6660 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 14 at 10:46pm
As I said above you should use microfibres for strength. Personally I always paint this sort of thing, but stuff a bit of black in there if you like, but if you do be sure to varnish or something so there's at least some uv protection. Don't suppose it makes much difference which retail epoxy you use for tge job.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Really should get out more


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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 14 at 8:35am
West and SP will both be strong enough if mixed correctly, provided the surface they are being stuck to is prepared.

Chances are Araldite would be - not that I'm suggesting you use it, just that you might be over analysing the job in hand.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Wiclif View Drop Down
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Posts: 81 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Wiclif Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 14 at 12:26pm
If using Araldite, do not use the Rapid version. It is not waterproof on a long term basis.
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