Ever wish you hadn't?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Repair & maintenance
Forum Discription: Questions & tips on the subject
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11351
Printed Date: 14 May 25 at 1:33am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Ever wish you hadn't?
Posted By: Kev M
Subject: Ever wish you hadn't?
Date Posted: 17 Feb 14 at 8:31pm
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Ever wish you hadn't decided to try and repair something? I decided to try and repair my carbon tiller. It looks like it has already had some sort of repair as the carbon plate doesn't match the rest of the tiller. The screws that hold the block in place and the plate onto the tiller wouldn't do up properly so I drilled out the two lower rivets on the plate so that I could try to build up an area for the screws to bite into. As it came apart it looks like there has been some bad delamination in the past. http://www.flickr.com/photos/8468390@N07/12569744214/" rel="nofollow">  http://www.flickr.com/photos/8468390@N07/12569744214/" rel="nofollow - WP_20140215_004.jpg by http://www.flickr.com/people/8468390@N07/" rel="nofollow - Kev "The Prince of Darkroom" , on Flickr http://www.flickr.com/photos/8468390@N07/12569391163/" rel="nofollow">  http://www.flickr.com/photos/8468390@N07/12569391163/" rel="nofollow - WP_20140215_006.jpg by http://www.flickr.com/people/8468390@N07/" rel="nofollow - Kev "The Prince of Darkroom" , on Flickr So, the questions is, what is the black stuff all over the plate and up the inside that the screws were sort of going into and where can I get some more to build it back up again? ------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Replies:
Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 10:39pm
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bump
------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 10:59pm
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What boat is this carbon stock from? If it is a Phantom then it is possibly a Winder stock but I have never seen one in such awful condition.
Is there any manufacturer's name on it? The worn away bits look to be carbon and you would presumably need to lay up carbon in epoxy to repair these but could well need specialised vacumm bagging and a curing oven. ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 11:04pm
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I can't say I try and repair boats or fix things myself.... not much point with P&B up the road. However I have spent 2 hours waxing my snowboard, first time making a right pigs ear out of it, hence scraping it down for an hour and a half. It would have cost a tenner to get some lank haired yoof in the local ski shop to do it.... lesson learned. ------------- |
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 9:14am
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I agree with Yellowbelly, it looks like a job for a professional repair unless you have experience with working with carbon fibre.
Looking at the Winder lifting rudder stock from my Merlin, I can see some similarities. The large hole/gap at the top rear of the stock looks as though it was shaped to take a turning block for the hold down string but looks as though it was ripped out. Can't figure the role of the separate plate. What boat is it intended for? Suggest that you talk to someone like Linnell & Bax (Northampton), Phil 'dirtyhands' Scott (Hams Hall, B/ham) or Dave Winder (Lancashire) depending on where you are based. ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 9:41am
some interesting content on your photosteam there Kev... women in their under crackers, on the internet...  ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 10:42am
Did you have the correct application of beer during the process? Snowboard waxing is an essential group activity usually in the hotel or chalet basement which should always be left looking like a snowstorm passed through only the snow was made of wax scrapings... It takes so much longer that way.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 11:27am
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Oh grief guys, don't exaggerate. This stuff ain't that hard. I'm no expert, but this is how I'd approach it.
By the looks of things its a rather scrotty repair which needs redoing because it wasn't done brilliantly the first time, or maybe an equally scrotty adaption to put the block in? Not sure what the gunge is without handling it, but it all needs to come off anyway and everything sanded back to good fibre. This is a pivoting rudder presumably, and we're looking at it from the back along the stock? Take all the gunge off and sand plate and mating surface back to good and flat. Take a good look at the resulting mating surface, it may be it just doesn't have enough area at the top. Glue the plate onto the rest of the stock with a nice strong (plenty of microfibre) epoxy mix. You want to get a nice fillet on the inside of the stock against the plate, so you'll need to do your best vet impression with a rubber gloved finger to smear it in there... Either leave the fillet quite clear of the holes where the block goes through, or else make the fillet doubly deep, it just depends what's practical. Review how much area ended up glued at the top. I fear it won't be much. If so it needs reinforcing. Radius the join in that area, and then run some carbon cloth - about 3 layers - from the main body of the stock onto the join. Hard to get it neat, but peel ply and pvc tape may help. Don't worry if it goes over the holes for the block. When all cured, cut the hole for the block out neatly. If you managed to get the inner face flat then just pop rivet it on. If you didn't and you have a big lump of filler instead then drill and use self tapping screws. Tapping the hole and using a bolt and loctite would be even better, but who has the stuff to do that? |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 4:19pm
nope - I fed, bathed and read stories to the kids and then waited until they were asleep before beetling off to my man cave to try my first attempt at self-waxing.... not really doing much for the image of the sport is it  ------------- |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 7:02pm
| It is a bit sad that so many have lost the practical skills or the desire to fix things themselves. I think our consumer culture and lack of practical jobs has certainly a lot to answer for and I wonder if the majority will ever go back to learning the necessary skills to carry out simple repairs. Sure doing it yourself will probably take longer but there is an enormous sense of satisfaction once you've done it. I am wondering 'what have I done' with the deck of my Grad but I take the view that it has to look worse before it gets better! |
Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 9:01pm
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It is from a Phantom. It looks like a Winder from their photos on the P&B site. Mine is one of the very first epoxy Phantoms (1098), not sure what age but it wouldn't surprise me if this was the time people started experimenting with carbon tillers. The rest of the finish on it is just as shocking as the bodged repair except those bits don't look like a repair, they look original.
Messing around with a proper carbon repair with vac bags and all that seems more hassle than it's worth. I can't see there being any real structural load in this area except for when pulling the rudder down so I'm thinking of just cleaning the gunk out, filling it, shaping it and putting the plate back on. All within my meager abilities. The trouble is I'm not sure what material to use. Someone on the Phantom forum recommended Spabond 345 to fill the gap but I can't find anyone who sells it except for in the USA. I've not done a repair like this before so recommendation on materials to byuy by name would be appreciated over generic resin & microfibre etc. I'm hoping I can just buy a kit of something that will contain everything I need. The alternative is I take it to Hartley's but it probably won't be any cheaper and where's the satisfaction in that eh?! ------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 9:06pm
Get spabond 345 from Marineware. Its what they bond AC and VOR bulkheads in with. Expensive (£40 plus for a tube) but you can count on it being 50% stronger in shear in real terms than "normal" epoxy for secondary bonds and it is rubber toughened so more shock resistant. Use the heatgun liberally when mixing it as its very viscous and even the fast stuff takes hours to go off. Black so doesn't make carbon work look crap. Dan |
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 9:48pm
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Talk to Dave Winder at Winder Boats. He will probably be able to tell you what the original material is/was.
You also need an upstand block to go into the hole and around which your rudder blade uphaul should run. If you look in the P & B online shop under Allen blocks, probably an upstand block 88-A4968 but have feeling that Winders use another one - ask. Probably also worth asking him about the cost of repair - he repaired a Merlin centreboard of mine which was around 15 years old and the cost was modest. ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 10:43pm
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Whoops. Apologies - said uphaul when I meant downhaul - this is used to keep the rudder blade down. Getting it up usually involves leaning over the back and lifting the blade up. ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 03 Apr 14 at 7:20pm
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So. This one is still dragging on, mainly due to my lack of free time and resistance to paying someone else to do the work. I asked my local chandlers to get me a price for some SP345 seeing as they stock other Spabond products. They came back with a price of £1000 and told me I'd need a special gun for it. I didn't waste any more time with this. Digging around a bit more is this shopping list any good? West Mini Pack - http://www.carbonology.com/west-mini-pack-p-249.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.carbonology.com/west-mini-pack-p-249.html Some filler - http://www.carbonology.com/epoxy-resins-filler-powders-c-131_136.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.carbonology.com/epoxy-resins-filler-powders-c-131_136.html Do I want powder or microfibres? Some colour pigment so that it doesn't stick out like a bodge job - http://www.carbonology.com/epoxy-pigment-black-p-244.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.carbonology.com/epoxy-pigment-black-p-244.html I was thinking that instead of filling inside and then trying to put self tapping screws into the resin like it did before to hold the block and plate on it might be better to bolt the block to the plate and then bond the plate to the tiller and add a couple of strips of glass tape to reinforce it. Does that sound like it'd work and is doable by someone with little composites experience? ------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 03 Apr 14 at 9:34pm
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Can take a Photo of that area on my Winder stock if that would be of help. Let me know. ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 03 Apr 14 at 10:11pm
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Thanks, I'm fine with how it fits together, I'm just unsure of what materials should be used for the repair. ------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Apr 14 at 10:46pm
| As I said above you should use microfibres for strength. Personally I always paint this sort of thing, but stuff a bit of black in there if you like, but if you do be sure to varnish or something so there's at least some uv protection. Don't suppose it makes much difference which retail epoxy you use for tge job. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Apr 14 at 8:35am
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West and SP will both be strong enough if mixed correctly, provided the surface they are being stuck to is prepared. Chances are Araldite would be - not that I'm suggesting you use it, just that you might be over analysing the job in hand. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Wiclif
Date Posted: 04 Apr 14 at 12:26pm
| If using Araldite, do not use the Rapid version. It is not waterproof on a long term basis. |