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Inside and outside at an obstruction.
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SteveB00 View Drop Down
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Posts: 24 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SteveB00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Inside and outside at an obstruction.
    Posted: 16 Jan 14 at 12:03am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Brass

both boats sailed on for another two or more boat lengths after position 2 without incident

 
And I guess then the answer is that Y breaks 19.2b as soon as there is a reasonable belief that B is running out of water.

Isn't this only the case if B is overlapped "inside" Y? At positions 3 and 4 in the diagram, this isn't the case, at least not by any dictionary definition of "inside" (and there is no definition in RRS).

If B runs out of of water, be it on her own head at this point.

Steve  = : ^ )
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 14 at 12:53am
Originally posted by SteveB00

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Brass

both boats sailed on for another two or more boat lengths after position 2 without incident

 
And I guess then the answer is that Y breaks 19.2b as soon as there is a reasonable belief that B is running out of water.

Isn't this only the case if B is overlapped "inside" Y? At positions 3 and 4 in the diagram, this isn't the case, at least not by any dictionary definition of "inside" (and there is no definition in RRS).

If B runs out of of water, be it on her own head at this point.

@2 B is clearly enough inside Y:  the question is whether she is 'at' the obstruction, tested, in accordance with RYA Appeal 2011/1, by B's reasonable belief that she could not sail any closer to the obstruction.

Given that she sails another two boat lengths towards the obstruction, there isn't evidence of her reasonable belief that she was at the obstruction @2.

OTOH, if she had hit the mud @2, that would be evidence that Y had not given her the room to which she was entitled at that point.

@3, as I previously discussed, Y is something like exactly 90 degrees to the shoreline, but it's going to be extremely difficulty to be certain that she is sailing exactly 90 degrees to the shore:  we can't be certain, so the last point of certainty is the point just before @3, when she is overlapped outside B.

@4, Y is clearly, now, inside B so no longer can be required to give B room under rule 19.2.

Last Point of Certainty is a very common and useful concept.  Rule 18.2( d ) is a particular example.

Here's a description of how Last Point of Certainty works from the MR Call Book

1. 'Last Point of Certainty' (GEN 1 Q1)

There are many occasions when umpires are required to judge the exact moment
when the state of a boat, or her relationship with another boat, changes.
Examples are: passing head to wind, establishing an overlap, approaching the
line to start, etc.

In such cases the umpires will assume that the state of a boat or the relationship
with another has not changed until they are certain that it has changed. For
example, a boat is not judged ‘beyond head to wind’ until the umpires are
certain that she is so.




Edited by Brass - 16 Jan 14 at 1:58am
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 14 at 9:04am
A hail from  W would clearly establish the point at which she is claiming that she is at the obstruction -  from that point on the obligation of Y is to give room - and protest if she believes that W could have gone in closer and kept clear as is made clear by the RYA case.

If after being informed by W that she is at the obstruction, being constrained by her draft, L continues to luff she is putting herself at risk of an allegation of "unfair sailing", a breach of rule 2.

I repeat - L's knowledge of W's draft is not entirely irrelevant.
Gordon
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