Racing Rules: Inside and outside at an obstruction.

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Inside and outside at an obstruction.

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Topic: Inside and outside at an obstruction.

Posted By: SteveB00
Subject: Inside and outside at an obstruction.
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 1:19am

A boat, L, is reaching on starboard tack towards a mark of the course that is at the left hand end of an island. However, it's the not the island, but a navigation mark just off the end of it that is listed as the mark. I believe that makes the island a continuing obstruction.

A bigger, slightly faster boat, W, catches L and forms an overlap to windward of her. L comes up until the boats are sailing straight at the island. The shore is a gradually shoaling beach and, while the boats are roughly abeam of each other, the bigger boat, W, starts to run out of water, while L still has enough water to sail further before needing to bear away for the mark.

My instinct is that rule 19(b) should compel L to bear away and make room for W to sail between her and the island but, while the boats are sailing directly at the island, in what sense are the boats "outside" and "inside"? To take it further, if L sailed high enough, she would appear to be the "inside" boat and W the "outside".

When W runs out of water, what compels L to bear away and allow W to pass the obstruction?

Thanks in advance,

Steve = : ^ )

Replies:

Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 5:15pm

Can someone quote 19.2.c. On my phone & can't cut and paste from a PDF.

I assume the island is to windward?

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 8:47pm

<quote>19.2(c) While boats are passing a continuing obstruction, if a boat that was clear astern and required to keep clear...</quote>

I think the crucial word here is passing. In your scenario they are approaching, so I don't believe 19.2(c) applies until such time as the boats are travelling more nearly parallel to the obstruction.

And in 19.2.b, L, as ROW boat has the right to choose which side of the obstruction they go, but as soon as she does that it becomes immediately clear which is the inside boat. If she delays the decision on which way to go until W has run out of room to navigate safely then I suspect she will lose both protest and insurance claim...

Posted By: iansmithofotley
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 9:08pm

Hi everyone,

Don't we need to know how big the island is (yards or miles long), how far the mark is from the island, whether or not the island can be rounded, and whether the mark to be rounded is a gybe mark? Also, are the boats large yachts or dinghies?

Ian (Yorkshire Dales SC)

Posted By: SteveB00
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 10:48pm

"I assume the island is to windward?" Yes, the boats are on starboard tack sailing towards an island with a mark at the left-hand end of the island, so the island is to windward.

"And in 19.2.b, L, as ROW boat has the right to choose which side of the obstruction they go, but as soon as she does that it becomes immediately clear which is the inside boat." Yes I understand that.

"If she delays the decision on which way to go until W has run out of room to navigate safely then I suspect she will lose both protest and insurance claim..." What are you basing that on? Specifically, how would W assert that L had broken a rule?

"Don't we need to know how big the island is (yards or miles long)" The island is large enough to constitute a continuing obstruction.

"how far the mark is from the island" There is no navigable water between the island and the mark.

"whether or not the island can be rounded" The island can be rounded the other way, but that means missing the mark.

"whether the mark to be rounded is a gybe mark" The way I've described it, it's not possible to gybe around the mark.

I think the same rules apply regardless of the size of the yachts. Here they're 35-40 footers.

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 11:52pm

Firstly, I don't have any difficulty with the island, and the mark, contiguous to the island, with no navigable water in between is a continuing obstruction, so rule 19 rather than rule 18 applies (rule 19.1).

MR Call B15 discusses the approaching at 90 degrees situation and gives some significant pointers on how to analyse this problem, although it doesn't get to the stage where a boat actually fails to give room.

MR CALL B15 (UMP 37)
Rule 11 On the Same Tack, Overlapped
Rule 16.1 Changing Course
Rule 19 Room to Pass an Obstruction
Question 1
Blue and Yellow are overlapped on port tack, with Yellow as the leeward, rightof-way boat. They approach a continuing obstruction on courses that make it clear that Yellow is the inside boat, or at an angle of approximately 90 degrees to the shoreline so that it is unclear which boat will be the inside boat when they reach the obstruction. Yellow begins to luff or maintains her course and Blue keeps clear. When Yellow is approximately one and a half lengths from the obstruction she suddenly bears away and passes the obstruction to port leaving Blue clear astern. There is a Y-flag. What should the call be?

Answer 1
Display the green and white flag. Rule 11 applies, and rule 19 also applies when it becomes clear that the boats are at the obstruction. Yellow has right of way and can choose to luff or bear away as she pleases provided she complies with rule 16.1. If Yellow and Blue bear away to pass the obstruction to port, Yellow must give room to Blue while the boats are overlapped. If Blue becomes clear astern, she must comply with rule 19.2(c). In the situations shown, no rules are broken.

Key issue for applicability of rule 19 is not whether boats are 'passing' the obstruction, but whether they are 'at' it (rule 19.1).

'Passing' comes up in rule 19.2( c ), which is a 'carve-out' exception to the fundamental obligation in rule 19.2( b ) to give room. But for boats to be 'inside' and 'outside' I guess there has to be some notion of 'passing'.

I'm happy that both boats are 'at' the obstruction when W, the larger becomes reasonably concerned about water under her keel. It would be absurd to say that one boat could be 'at' the obstruction and the other boat 'not at' the obstruction.

It's going to be extremely difficulty to be certain that L is sailing exactly 90 degrees to the island.

Last point of certainty was she was sailing obliquely towards the obstruction with W overlapped inside. At this point, when 'at' the obstruction, L must give W room between her and the obstruction.

Only if L could persuade a protest committee that she had sailed more than 90 degrees to the obstruction, and thus had become the inside boat, would this not apply.

Posted By: iansmithofotley
Date Posted: 12 Jan 14 at 12:27am

Originally posted by SteveB00

"I assume the island is to windward?" Yes, the boats are on starboard tack sailing towards an island with a mark at the left-hand end of the island, so the island is to windward.

"Don't we need to know how big the island is (yards or miles long)" The island is large enough to constitute a continuing obstruction.

"how far the mark is from the island" There is no navigable water between the island and the mark.

"whether or not the island can be rounded" The island can be rounded the other way, but that means missing the mark.

"whether the mark to be rounded is a gybe mark" The way I've described it, it's not possible to gybe around the mark.

I think the same rules apply regardless of the size of the yachts. Here they're 35-40 footers.

Hi Steve,

Thank you. I now realise that the mark is to be left to starboard, which was not mentioned in your original post.

Ian (Yorkshire Dales SC)

Posted By: SteveB00
Date Posted: 12 Jan 14 at 3:18am

Leaving my original scenario aside and using your diagram, in which the boats are on the opposite tack, it's the 3rd diagram I'm mostly interested in. Let's say there's a mark at the right hand end (for the boats, off the bottom of the picture for us) of the obstruction and L (yellow) has luffed up W (blue) who is attempting to pass to windward. L is, by any usual meaning of the word, the "inside" boat. It appears she can force W (blue) into a position where she can no longer bear away before bearing away herself and taking the mark.

Is this correct?

Steve = : ^ )

P.S. I assume the umpires call is from match racing and I don't understand the significance of the Y and the green and white flags.

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 12 Jan 14 at 4:59am

Yes, in the third diagram in MR Call B15 (bottom left) Y is the leeward, inside boat, entitled to both right of way (rule 11) and room at the obstruction (rule 19) throughout.

Is this diagram something like your original scenario?

@3 Y is something like exactly 90 degrees to the shoreline, but, as previously discussed, we can't be sure, so last point of certainty is she is overlapped outside B. If B is running out of water, boats are at the obstruction and Y must give B room.

@4, Y is clearly past 90 degrees to the shoreline and becomes the inside boat (as in the above MR Call). If Y can get to this position without failing to give B room, she is as good as gold.

Consider: this situation is no different from taking a boat the wrong side of the mark, while outside the zone at any ordinary mark.

And in match racing flag Y is displayed by a boat to signify a protest, Green and White Flag in response by umpires means no boat is penalised and a penalty is signified by a Blue or Yellow flag corresponding to the colour of the boat penalised

Posted By: SteveB00
Date Posted: 12 Jan 14 at 5:53am

Yes, this is the situation (except that the wind was a little further aft). I'm kind of surprised that, as long as yellow aims roughly at the mark and blue is "inside", then blue has rights, but if yellow luffs up to the point where she is closer to the obstruction than blue, then she can force blue out, then bear away herself. It may seem difficult for her to do that in your match race diagram but, she may be a bigger boat, and may be further ahead than in the diagram.

A boat can only take another boat the wrong side of a mark if she also goes the wrong side, correct? Here yellow bears away at the last minute to take the mark, but has forced blue to tack and gybe (or tack back) to get there.

Thanks for all this,

Steve = : ^ )

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 12 Jan 14 at 7:07am

Originally posted by SteveB00

Yes, this is the situation (except that the wind was a little further aft).

Originally posted by SteveB00

I'm kind of surprised that, as long as yellow aims roughly at the mark and blue is "inside", then blue has rights, but if yellow luffs up to the point where she is closer to the obstruction than blue, then she can force blue out, then bear away herself. It may seem difficult for her to do that in your match race diagram but, she may be a bigger boat, and may be further ahead than in the diagram.

I agree it's a bit counter-intuitive, but that's the natural working out of 'inside' and 'outside'.

It probably only arises when, as you described, Blue is significantly bigger than Y, and would probably have been better off rolling through Yellow to leeward.

Originally posted by SteveB00

A boat can only take another boat the wrong side of a mark if she also goes the wrong side, correct?

Errr, no. Not since 1989 when that rule was deleted.

Under present rules, if you want to do it, you have to do it before the first of you reaches the zone, but outside the zone you are quite at liberty to push a windward boat away from the mark, then spin and dive back, clear ahead at the zone.

Originally posted by SteveB00

Here yellow bears away at the last minute to take the mark, but has forced blue to tack and gybe (or tack back) to get there.

Sure, but how many places will she have cost both of them?

Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 12 Jan 14 at 12:10pm

Rya appeal 1968/11

Posted By: SteveB00
Date Posted: 12 Jan 14 at 12:12pm

Originally posted by Brass

Thanks for that.

Originally posted by Brass

Sure, but how many places will she have cost both of them?

Possibly none, which was the case in the race that inspired my post.

Thanks again,

Steve = : ^ )

Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 13 Jan 14 at 12:27pm

Practically, it seems to me, this is really the end game of a w/l situation, not a stand alone obstruction thing.
Neither boat will know the exact topography of the contour line which dictates how far W can be luffed.
There may be shallow bits not parallel to the shore.
If W can reasonably believe he is closer to that contour than L, he can call for water?
In 40ft boats, he must make his call in sufficient time for L to respond.
Once he has called, L is bound by it and would have to prove that W called when he knew he had a good many boatlengths before risking his keel.

So I guess for L to come out of this well, he needs to take W beyond 90 degrees to the shoreline several boatlengths from that contour.

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 14 Jan 14 at 10:39pm

Originally posted by RS400atC

Practically, it seems to me, this is really the end game of a w/l situation, not a stand alone obstruction thing.
Neither boat will know the exact topography of the contour line which dictates how far W can be luffed.
There may be shallow bits not parallel to the shore.
If W can reasonably believe he is closer to that contour than L, he can call for water?
In 40ft boats, he must make his call in sufficient time for L to respond.
Once he has called, L is bound by it and would have to prove that W called when he knew he had a good many boatlengths before risking his keel.

So I guess for L to come out of this well, he needs to take W beyond 90 degrees to the shoreline several boatlengths from that contour.

W can call for water, or call for a pint, or call for a whisky and soda, but it won't affect her rights and obligations under the rules.

Rule 19.2( b ) says the outside boat (L) shall give the inside boat (W) room between her and the obstruction, unless she has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.

This simply depends on facts.

If W can demonstrate that there was not enough room for her to pass between L and the obstruction (for example, if she grounds, while taking no more space than necessary to keep clear of L) L has broken rule 19.2( b ). Whether L knew or ought to have known that W's deeper draft effectively brought the obstruction 'closer' is irrelevant.

Yes it would be nice and it would be sensible if W hailed L that she needed the room, but it is not a requirement of the rules.

Note, we are not talking about rule 20 hails here, because that would be a hail for room to tack and avoid, when what W would be hailing for would be for room to stand on or bear away.

Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 15 Jan 14 at 1:42pm

Originally posted by Brass

.....

Rule 19.2( b ) says the outside boat (L) shall give the inside boat (W) room between her and the obstruction, unless she has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.

.....

At position 2 in the yellow/blue diagram, is Y breaking this rule?
At what point is she required to steer for the mark, allowing space for blue?

Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 15 Jan 14 at 5:58pm

Brass said - "If W can demonstrate that there was not enough room for her to pass between L and the obstruction (for example, if she grounds, while taking no more space than necessary to keep clear of L) L has broken rule 19.2( b ). Whether L knew or ought to have known that W's deeper draft effectively brought the obstruction 'closer' is irrelevant."

The point about whether L knew about W's deeper draft or not is not totally irrelevant... because in this instance the draft defines the limits of the obstruction. Furtermore, the obstruction is now underwater, therefore invisible. If W's draft is exceptional compared to other similar boats L an argue that she gave the space needed but that W by not informing her of an exceptional danger was not acting in a seamanlike way. Just as it is seamanlike to keep a good lookout, in this situation it would be samalike for W to inform L that she needs a greater depth of water in which to sail.

-------------
Gordon

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 15 Jan 14 at 9:49pm

Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Brass

.....

Rule 19.2( b ) says the outside boat (L) shall give the inside boat (W) room between her and the obstruction, unless she has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.

.....

At position 2 in the yellow/blue diagram, is Y breaking this rule?
At what point is she required to steer for the mark, allowing space for blue?

That depends on the facts.

Rule 19 only applies 'at' the obstruction.

I think boats are 'at' the obstruction when W, the larger, becomes reasonably concerned about water under her keel.

As I said, if W can demonstrate that there was not enough room for her to pass between L and the obstruction (for example, if she grounds, while taking no more space than necessary to keep clear of L) L has broken rule 19.2( b ).

Given that in the diagram both boats sailed on for another two or more boat lengths after position 2 without incident, I don't think they were 'at' the obstruction at position 2.

To give room at the obstruction, it is not necessary for L to 'steer for the mark', as long as she gives room. 'Steer for the mark' smacks of 'proper course' which is not relevant here.

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 15 Jan 14 at 11:25pm

Originally posted by gordon

Brass said - "If W can demonstrate that there was not enough room for her to pass between L and the obstruction (for example, if she grounds, while taking no more space than necessary to keep clear of L) L has broken rule 19.2( b ). Whether L knew or ought to have known that W's deeper draft effectively brought the obstruction 'closer' is irrelevant."

The point about whether L knew about W's deeper draft or not is not totally irrelevant... because in this instance the draft defines the limits of the obstruction. Furthermore, the obstruction is now underwater, therefore invisible. If W's draft is exceptional compared to other similar boats L can argue that she gave the space needed but that W by not informing her of an exceptional danger was not acting in a seamanlike way. Just as it is seamanlike to keep a good lookout, in this situation it would be samalike for W to inform L that she needs a greater depth of water in which to sail.

I don't agree that your argument establishes that L's knowledge of W's draft, or the relationship between W's draft and the depth of water is relevant to breach of rule 19.2.

The vast majority of rules, and certainly Part 2 rules, rely only on physical facts: for example was there room or was there not. There is no mental element of either knowledge or intention.

Whether there was an 'exceptional' danger is likewise not relevant.

No rule says a boat shall sail in a seamanlike way.

No rule says that a boat loses an entitlement she has if she does not sail in a seamanlike way, although, clearly, in some circumstances, manouevering in an unseamanlike way will make it impossible for a boat to prove that there was insufficient room if she had manoeuvered in a seamanlike way.

Cases 21 (last paragraph) and 103 (headnote) tell us that 'seamanlike way' refers to the 'handling of [a boat's] helm, sheets and sails' and 'boat handling'.

While W hailing to alert L of the need to give her room might be the seamanlike thing to do, hailing is of a wholly different species of action to 'manoeuvering in a seamanlike way' as the term is used in the rules.

I think RYA Appeal 2011/1 is relevant. It describes a case where the outside boat did not think she needed to give room, and where no hails were given.

RYA 2011/1
Rule 14, Avoiding Contact
Rule 19, Room to Pass an Obstruction
An inside boat that reasonably believes that she is at an obstruction and acts accordingly is entitled to room from an outside boat. The inside boat is not required to endanger herself in order to claim her entitlement to room. If the outside boat disputes the inside boat's entitlement to room, she must nevertheless give room, and then, if she wishes, protest.
SUMMARY OF THE FACTS
During the Round the Island Race 2010, both boats were reaching on port tack and were in the process of rounding the southernmost tip of the Isle of Wight, which was to windward. Profile was ahead and to windward. Tilt approached from clear astern and was sailing on a higher course than Profile. When the boats became overlapped, there were more than 2 boat lengths between them. Profile believed that there was insufficient depth of water to windward to allow her to sail any higher. Profile held her course and Tilt continued sailing a higher course. As the boats converged, there was contact causing damage. Profile protested Tilt.

The protest committee decided that Profile was not 'at an obstruction' and was therefore not entitled to room under rule 19.2(b). It disqualified Profile under rule 11.

The protest committee also stated there was nothing Tilt could have been expected to do to avoid contact and therefore she did not break rule 14 as a result.

Profile appealed.
DECISION
The appeal is upheld. Profile is to be reinstated to her finishing position and Tilt is to be disqualified.

When there is a dispute over an entitlement to room due to differing views on whether a boat is at an obstruction or not, the proper course of action is for the outside boat to give room and then to protest. The inside boat is not required to endanger herself in order to claim her entitlement to room. The principles applicable are similar to those in ISAF Case 50.

At a protest hearing, it is for the right-of-way boat to establish that contact would have occurred if she had held her course and therefore that she needed to take avoiding action. It is then for the inside boat to present sufficient evidence to establish that she was at an obstruction and that she was entitled to room. If, after considering all the evidence, a protest committee finds that the inside boat had a reasonable belief that she was at an obstruction and required room, it should dismiss the protest. If the protest committee is satisfied that the inside boat’s belief was not reasonable in all the circumstances, it should uphold the protest and disqualify her.

The RYA accepts that Profile genuinely believed she could not sail any higher and that, given the depth of water, the size of boats and the wind strength at the time of the incident, that belief was a reasonable one to have.

Profile was accordingly entitled to room under rule 19.2(b) and was compelled to break rule 11 by Tilt’s failure to give room. Profile is therefore exonerated from her breach of rule 11 under rule 64.1(a) and Tilt is to be disqualified for breaking rule 19.2(b). Profile did not avoid contact with Tilt, but under rule 14(a) was not required to act to do so until it was clear that Tilt was not giving room, at which point there was no safe possibility for Profile to avoid the contact. Tilt, however, could have avoided contact and is, therefore, also disqualified under rule 14 because the contact
resulted in damage.

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Jan 14 at 11:55pm

Originally posted by Brass

both boats sailed on for another two or more boat lengths after position 2 without incident

Sailing, as I do, a boat that readily exceeds one boat length per second, two boat lengths doesn't sound very comfortable to me.

That RYA case seems smack on. I really must get in the habit of reading the RYA one (which has all the ISAF cases in anyway) rather than the ISAF one.

And I guess then the answer is that Y breaks 19.2b as soon as there is a reasonable belief that B is running out of water.

Posted By: SteveB00
Date Posted: 16 Jan 14 at 12:03am

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Brass

both boats sailed on for another two or more boat lengths after position 2 without incident

And I guess then the answer is that Y breaks 19.2b as soon as there is a reasonable belief that B is running out of water.

Isn't this only the case if B is overlapped "inside" Y? At positions 3 and 4 in the diagram, this isn't the case, at least not by any dictionary definition of "inside" (and there is no definition in RRS).

If B runs out of of water, be it on her own head at this point.

Steve = : ^ )

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 16 Jan 14 at 12:53am

Originally posted by SteveB00

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Brass

both boats sailed on for another two or more boat lengths after position 2 without incident

And I guess then the answer is that Y breaks 19.2b as soon as there is a reasonable belief that B is running out of water.

If B runs out of of water, be it on her own head at this point.

@2 B is clearly enough inside Y: the question is whether she is 'at' the obstruction, tested, in accordance with RYA Appeal 2011/1, by B's reasonable belief that she could not sail any closer to the obstruction.

Given that she sails another two boat lengths towards the obstruction, there isn't evidence of her reasonable belief that she was at the obstruction @2.

OTOH, if she had hit the mud @2, that would be evidence that Y had not given her the room to which she was entitled at that point.

@3, as I previously discussed, Y is something like exactly 90 degrees to the shoreline, but it's going to be extremely difficulty to be certain that she is sailing exactly 90 degrees to the shore: we can't be certain, so the last point of certainty is the point just before @3, when she is overlapped outside B.

@4, Y is clearly, now, inside B so no longer can be required to give B room under rule 19.2.

Last Point of Certainty is a very common and useful concept. Rule 18.2( d ) is a particular example.

Here's a description of how Last Point of Certainty works from the MR Call Book

1. 'Last Point of Certainty' (GEN 1 Q1)

There are many occasions when umpires are required to judge the exact moment
when the state of a boat, or her relationship with another boat, changes.
Examples are: passing head to wind, establishing an overlap, approaching the
line to start, etc.

In such cases the umpires will assume that the state of a boat or the relationship
with another has not changed until they are certain that it has changed. For
example, a boat is not judged ‘beyond head to wind’ until the umpires are
certain that she is so.

Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 16 Jan 14 at 9:04am

A hail from W would clearly establish the point at which she is claiming that she is at the obstruction - from that point on the obligation of Y is to give room - and protest if she believes that W could have gone in closer and kept clear as is made clear by the RYA case.

If after being informed by W that she is at the obstruction, being constrained by her draft, L continues to luff she is putting herself at risk of an allegation of "unfair sailing", a breach of rule 2.

I repeat - L's knowledge of W's draft is not entirely irrelevant.

-------------
Gordon