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Rules Question on Overlaps
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MrBill View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Jul 12 at 2:01pm
Situation:
 
2 boats proceeding on rhumb line course to the leeward mark, both on starboard tack, dead downwind with booms at right angles to the hull. Boats are Lasers.
 
Boat A is clear ahead.
 
Boat B is clear astern and to leeward.
 
Boat B overtakes boat A and overlaps close to A and in doing so sails over the mainsheet of A which is drooping from the end of the boom to the port stern corner. Both boats were and continue sailing straight ahead and neither alters course. B continues forward until its mast hits the boom of A. Once B sails over A's mainsheet, A is unable to manuever.
 
B claims A failed to give room to his overlap.
 
A claims B failed to give A room to keep clear.
 
Opinions?
 
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Not sure how B can be in the right on any of this?
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Posts: 1314 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 12 at 2:33pm
surely once B overlaps A and presuming B gained his overlap pretty closely then so long as he doesn't sail above his rhumb line to the next mark then A must keep clear.   B has to give him opportunity but his main sheet is still part of his boat so unless there was some serious surfing going on by B I would argue A had time.
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Posts: 24 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Phantom Titch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 12 at 2:34pm
A should have been heeled to windward and his main sheet would not have been dragging in the water.... Clown
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surely once B overlaps A and presuming B gained his overlap pretty closely then so long as he doesn't sail above his rhumb line to the next mark then A must keep clear.

Except that B must have hit the mainsheet almost as the overlap was created, which surely puts B in the wrong. So B both hit A and then, by sitting on the mainsheet, prevented A making room. 
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 12 at 3:17pm
B established overlap from astern and must not sail above her proper course therefore as long as A was sailing her proper course (as both boats were Lasers proper course is the same for both).

I would say B was at fault for sailing in to a gap that didn't really exist and expecting A to get out the way when she had no right to make that call.

I suppose B could argue that when the contact took place they were overlapped but I am sure there is something in the rules about sailing in to non navigable water somewhere (unless that is part of IRPCS which you fall back to).

Rule 12:

ON THE SAME TACK, NOT OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and not  overlapped, a boat  clear 
astern shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead.

Then changes to Rule 11:

ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED 
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat 
shall keep clear of a leeward boat

And B's actions are limited by Rule 17:

ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE 
 If a boat  clear astern becomes  overlapped within two of her hull 
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above 
her  proper course while they remain on the same  tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails 
astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply  if the  overlap  
begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.
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Posts: 1314 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 12 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by PeterG

surely once B overlaps A and presuming B gained his overlap pretty closely then so long as he doesn't sail above his rhumb line to the next mark then A must keep clear.

Except that B must have hit the mainsheet almost as the overlap was created, which surely puts B in the wrong. So B both hit A and then, by sitting on the mainsheet, prevented A making room. 

Depends where it hit the mainsheet, OP doesn't say - if it was near the boom its going to be well forward of the transom on a run.

But as soon as B overlapped then the onus is then on A to keep clear - A's line to the mark does not matter.
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Posts: 1314 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 12 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by jeffers


I would say B was at fault for sailing in to a gap that didn't really exist and expecting A to get out the way when she had no right to make that call.

I

ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE 
 If a boat  clear astern becomes  overlapped within two of her hull 
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above 
her  proper course while they remain on the same  tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails 
astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply  if the  overlap  
begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

What gap  - OP doesn't say anything about gap so i have assumed clear water - therefore the last rule quote is valid and A must stay clear.
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Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 12 at 6:53pm
Depends where it hit the mainsheet, OP doesn't say - if it was near the boom its going to be well forward of the transom on a run.

The OP says B overlapped close to A, by which I'd assume B hit the mainsheet near to the leeward quarter, and so would have made contact almost as the overlap was formed. 
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MrBill View Drop Down
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Posts: 5 		Post Options Post Options   Quote MrBill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 12 at 7:41pm
Thanks for all the conflicting opinions! a point of clarification...B overlapped A within about 2 feet, and there were just seconds from the overlap to contact with the sheets. B was coming up on a puff that had not yet affected A.
 
This same scenario has also occurred on the starting line in a number of races: A is approaching the line and luffing with his boom out at about 45 degrees. B comes from behind and sails into the gap between A's hull and the end of the boom but usually further away and so the end of the boom strikes B.
MrBill
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