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Pulling the Trigger Y&Y article
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JohnW View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 Jul 11 at 5:13pm
The article by Jon Emmett in this months issue states that you are allowed to roll the boat once within rule 42 so that you can accelerate the boat off the start.

However this does not seem to be consistent with the ISAF Rule 42 interpretation document
which states

Except when permitted under rule 42.3(c), one  pump may be prohibited under rule 
42.1.

So unless you are steering up onto a close hauled course, "pulling the trigger" as suggested seems to me to be illegal.  
The method described in the article has separate steps for the roll to accelerate (step 5) and the heading up (step 6) this is backed up by the photos where the roll to leeward (photo 4) cannot be to steer the boat, as the helm has got his rudder on in the opposite direction.  Arguably Photo 5 shows the rudder on, but this is not consistent with the text.

This seems to be common practise in laser fleets and is coached in articles such as this one, but is it really legal (especially if you are not using the roll to steer the boat)?

It this process is allowed on the start, what is there to stop a boat doing something similar half way up the beat?

Thoughts?
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Part of the issue is that with a lot of the squad coaching they are taught to push the rules to the absolute limit. This them works it's way down into the club fleets where it is done with much less skill and is likely to breach rule 42.
 
Given that fact that most major events have on the water jury boats and you do not hear of loads of people getting yellow flagged at the start we have to assume that this falls within the rules, even if by some interpretations it does seem to be illegal.
 
In practice you are rarely sat on a close hauled course on the start line (more likely on a close reach) so the 'pulling the trigger' is likely to result in some steering effect which is possibly why you can get away with it.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 11 at 12:54am
Originally posted by jeffers

Given that fact that most major events have on the water jury boats and you do not hear of loads of people getting yellow flagged at the start we have to assume that this falls within the rules, even if by some interpretations it does seem to be illegal.
1.  Rule 42 is extremely difficult to judge on the water at the best of times.  What judges see on the water is usually a peripheral view of a 'yellow light' symptom, such as a flick, which then alerts them to watch for repetitions of the pump, scull or rock which gets into the 'red light' penalty.  What you are NOT going to see at the higher levels is the 'long arm' coming out of the boat with the big pump':  elite competitors practice for hours executing pumps without obviously moving their arms.
 
2.  Detecting a single movement rule 42 breach, as described, is even more difficult, and difficult to get your fellow judge, who may be watching another boat, to agree to.
 
3.  Rule 42 umpiring at a start line in anything but a very small fleet, to be done properly, requires at least three jury boats each with a pair of experienced rule 42 judges (that is, one more judge than is required for an International Jury):  Jury Boats need to be assigned to RC Boat, Middle, and Pin sectors of the line.  Sometimes you try to limp along with three judges in one boat, indivudually assigned to the sectors, but that means that no two judges will ever see the same single breach.
 
4.  Bottom line is, I don't share your confidence that on-water judging is capable of detecting any more than a small proportion of single-movement rule 42 breaches on a starting line, and thus I am far from confident that these 'coached techniques' can be said to be 'race tested and found to be within the rules'.
 
5.  I long for the day when the underlying concepts for rule 42 are rigorously examined and the whole rule is re-written so as to be an easily judgeable rule.


Edited by Brass - 25 Jul 11 at 12:54am
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bert View Drop Down
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Posts: 584 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 11 at 2:22am

1.  Rule 42 is extremely difficult to judge on the water at the best of times.  What judges see on the water is usually a peripheral view of a 'yellow light' symptom, such as a flick, which then alerts them to watch for repetitions of the pump, scull or rock which gets into the 'red light' penalty.  What you are NOT going to see at the higher levels is the 'long arm' coming out of the boat with the big pump':  elite competitors practice for hours executing pumps without obviously moving their arms. 

 
you give the impression that "elite “means trained to push the rules to breaking point & possibly more with a if you are not caught it`s alright mentality. - personally having sailed against squadies it isn`t a level playing field unless you are willing to do the same. IN MY OBSERVATION & thats over a quite a lenght of time, this isn`t a new thing that has just arrived in racing it`s been with us as long as Rule 42 was put in the rule book.
This means that from my point of veiw you can ONLY win if you cheat.
 
Having said that this rule 42 rule bending tends to be in the large fleets of lasers more then other class`s but not limited to just lasers.
 
When you sail behind another class of boat in light winds ( like the birkett this year ) it is amazing how unstable some class`s are & for no visual reason.Very strange when you`r boat seems to be quite stable in the same wind.
 
When the wind is enough to power you up then it is correct to play the mainto get the best performance from your boat but to continuly correct port stbd boat trim in NO wind that has to be cheating?.
Funny how they tend to stop triming IF you pull them on it.
 
Hence I sail for the fun of the event & the pleasure of sailing in a different venue.
 
MY POINT OF VEIW ONLY
 
Saying all of that it is fair to say that my bad techique loses ME more then pumping would gain me so it is just as well that I sail for pleasure rather then silver.


Edited by bert - 25 Jul 11 at 2:24am
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 11 at 2:59am
Originally posted by bert

1.  Rule 42 is extremely difficult to judge on the water at the best of times.  What judges see on the water is usually a peripheral view of a 'yellow light' symptom, such as a flick, which then alerts them to watch for repetitions of the pump, scull or rock which gets into the 'red light' penalty.  What you are NOT going to see at the higher levels is the 'long arm' coming out of the boat with the big pump':  Some elite competitors must practice for hours executing pumps without obviously moving their arms. 

 
you give the impression that "elite “means trained to push the rules to breaking point & possibly more with a if you are not caught it`s alright mentality. - personally having sailed against squadies it isn`t a level playing field unless you are willing to do the same. IN MY OBSERVATION & thats over a quite a lenght of time, this isn`t a new thing that has just arrived in racing it`s been with us as long as Rule 42 was put in the rule book.
This means that from my point of veiw you can ONLY win if you cheat.
 
Having said that this rule 42 rule bending tends to be in the large fleets of lasers more then other class`s but not limited to just lasers.
 
 
Perhaps what I should have said is as I have amended it above.
 
The point I was trying to make, following what jeffers said, was that, at the elite level rule 42 breaches are hard to detect, while, for lack of practice and expertise, at the lower levels, they tend to stick out more.
 
I don't want to comment on the 'if you don't get caught it doesn't count' mentality, but the root of my disquiet with kinetic techniques is that the only way to learn to apply them according to the rules involves huge amounts of practice at pumping and rocking in breach of the rules, then further considerable practice in 'scaling back' to do these things within the rules.  I just instinctively feel that this is wrong.
 
It certainly is a 'fleet culture' thing and it is 'driven' by coaches.
 
I was on-water at a junior regatta earlier this year, and after the lasers aNd 420s, it was a delight to watch one of the local 9ft classes, who had obviously been coached in a strict and sportsmanlike manner, where sailors were watching with fierce concentration to time their one allowed pump for each wave, then retrim and wait for the next wave to come along.
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bert View Drop Down
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Posts: 584 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 11 at 4:11am

There doe`s seem to be a hard to prove easy to do attitude towards this when the wind doesn’t play friendly.

I also think that in general you will notice this rule 42 bending ( of the type that I am thinking of ) happening in very light wind meetings rather then anywhere else .

 
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Neptune View Drop Down
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Posts: 1314 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 11 at 10:00am
I'd like to see an article next month where Jon tries the same technique in something like a 600.  I suspect he'll be putting a trigger to his head as the boat stall and the fleet sail round him  Wink
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 11 at 10:42am
I remember the last time I did the Tiger trophy... We were sailing a Cherub with a very efficient and small laminar flow daggerboard. Great foil, but its not interested in hanging on the startline: it just stalls out and it takes you about 15 seconds to get control of the boat again. So obviously starts have to be in the nature of a timed run rather than sitting there, and its normally a question of making a run across transoms and spotting a suitable gap if you're faced with a line of stationary boats. Get your gap and you're through with full speed and out the front before they know what's gone past them. The only trouble was this time we were faced with a wall of squad trained 420s, all mathematically exactly spaced, and no frigging gap...

Funnily enough I was doing much the same thing in a fast handicap race on Sunday with the Canoe, and somewhat cut up a Solo who was unaccountably mixed up in the fray... There was a shout of "Oi, Jim, keep clear of our start", at which point about four other voices shouted back "but [name redacted to protect the guilty], its *his* start...

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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 11 at 11:05am
Doesn't seem to work very well in scow bowed, flat bottomed Minisails, either. Or in heavy Comet Trios, where you just go sideways for a while.
 
Maybe the Y&Y articles (whether teaching illegal stuff or not) need to be a little less squaddy-centric?
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 11 at 11:15am

B14 starts certainly are much more "get going 5-10 seconds before the gun" with a bit of jostling for postion- gneral recalls are rather common if there's tide against wind. Takes a bit of time to get flow on the foils, especially as the rudder is tiny. from what I've seen, I reckon most "skiff" type boats sre similar- the stationary "rack up" and "trigger pulling" is a recipe for disaster.
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