Pulling the Trigger Y&Y article
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
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Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 2:42pm
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Topic: Pulling the Trigger Y&Y article
Posted By: JohnW
Subject: Pulling the Trigger Y&Y article
Date Posted: 23 Jul 11 at 5:13pm
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The article by Jon Emmett in this months issue states that you are allowed to roll the boat once within rule 42 so that you can accelerate the boat off the start. However this does not seem to be consistent with the ISAF Rule 42 interpretation document http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/42interpretations2010final-%5b10193%5d.pdf - http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/42interpretations2010final-[10193].pdf which states Except when permitted under rule 42.3(c), one pump may be prohibited under rule 42.1. So unless you are steering up onto a close hauled course, "pulling the trigger" as suggested seems to me to be illegal. The method described in the article has separate steps for the roll to accelerate (step 5) and the heading up (step 6) this is backed up by the photos where the roll to leeward (photo 4) cannot be to steer the boat, as the helm has got his rudder on in the opposite direction. Arguably Photo 5 shows the rudder on, but this is not consistent with the text. This seems to be common practise in laser fleets and is coached in articles such as this one, but is it really legal (especially if you are not using the roll to steer the boat)? It this process is allowed on the start, what is there to stop a boat doing something similar half way up the beat? Thoughts? |
Replies:
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 24 Jul 11 at 8:12am
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Part of the issue is that with a lot of the squad coaching they are taught to push the rules to the absolute limit. This them works it's way down into the club fleets where it is done with much less skill and is likely to breach rule 42.
Given that fact that most major events have on the water jury boats and you do not hear of loads of people getting yellow flagged at the start we have to assume that this falls within the rules, even if by some interpretations it does seem to be illegal.
In practice you are rarely sat on a close hauled course on the start line (more likely on a close reach) so the 'pulling the trigger' is likely to result in some steering effect which is possibly why you can get away with it. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 25 Jul 11 at 12:54am
1. Rule 42 is extremely difficult to judge on the water at the best of times. What judges see on the water is usually a peripheral view of a 'yellow light' symptom, such as a flick, which then alerts them to watch for repetitions of the pump, scull or rock which gets into the 'red light' penalty. What you are NOT going to see at the higher levels is the 'long arm' coming out of the boat with the big pump': elite competitors practice for hours executing pumps without obviously moving their arms.
2. Detecting a single movement rule 42 breach, as described, is even more difficult, and difficult to get your fellow judge, who may be watching another boat, to agree to.
3. Rule 42 umpiring at a start line in anything but a very small fleet, to be done properly, requires at least three jury boats each with a pair of experienced rule 42 judges (that is, one more judge than is required for an International Jury): Jury Boats need to be assigned to RC Boat, Middle, and Pin sectors of the line. Sometimes you try to limp along with three judges in one boat, indivudually assigned to the sectors, but that means that no two judges will ever see the same single breach.
4. Bottom line is, I don't share your confidence that on-water judging is capable of detecting any more than a small proportion of single-movement rule 42 breaches on a starting line, and thus I am far from confident that these 'coached techniques' can be said to be 'race tested and found to be within the rules'.
5. I long for the day when the underlying concepts for rule 42 are rigorously examined and the whole rule is re-written so as to be an easily judgeable rule.
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Posted By: bert
Date Posted: 25 Jul 11 at 2:22am
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1. Rule 42 is extremely difficult to judge on the water at the best of times. What judges see on the water is usually a peripheral view of a 'yellow light' symptom, such as a flick, which then alerts them to watch for repetitions of the pump, scull or rock which gets into the 'red light' penalty. What you are NOT going to see at the higher levels is the 'long arm' coming out of the boat with the big pump': elite competitors practice for hours executing pumps without obviously moving their arms. you give the impression that "elite “means trained to push the rules to breaking point & possibly more with a if you are not caught it`s alright mentality. - personally having sailed against squadies it isn`t a level playing field unless you are willing to do the same. IN MY OBSERVATION & thats over a quite a lenght of time, this isn`t a new thing that has just arrived in racing it`s been with us as long as Rule 42 was put in the rule book.
This means that from my point of veiw you can ONLY win if you cheat.
Having said that this rule 42 rule bending tends to be in the large fleets of lasers more then other class`s but not limited to just lasers.
When you sail behind another class of boat in light winds ( like the birkett this year ) it is amazing how unstable some class`s are & for no visual reason.Very strange when you`r boat seems to be quite stable in the same wind.
When the wind is enough to power you up then it is correct to play the mainto get the best performance from your boat but to continuly correct port stbd boat trim in NO wind that has to be cheating?.
Funny how they tend to stop triming IF you pull them on it.
Hence I sail for the fun of the event & the pleasure of sailing in a different venue.
MY POINT OF VEIW ONLY
Saying all of that it is fair to say that my bad techique loses ME more then pumping would gain me so it is just as well that I sail for pleasure rather then silver. ------------- Phantom 1181 AC-227 IC 304 blaze / halo 586 |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 25 Jul 11 at 2:59am
The point I was trying to make, following what jeffers said, was that, at the elite level rule 42 breaches are hard to detect, while, for lack of practice and expertise, at the lower levels, they tend to stick out more.
I don't want to comment on the 'if you don't get caught it doesn't count' mentality, but the root of my disquiet with kinetic techniques is that the only way to learn to apply them according to the rules involves huge amounts of practice at pumping and rocking in breach of the rules, then further considerable practice in 'scaling back' to do these things within the rules. I just instinctively feel that this is wrong.
It certainly is a 'fleet culture' thing and it is 'driven' by coaches.
I was on-water at a junior regatta earlier this year, and after the lasers aNd 420s, it was a delight to watch one of the local 9ft classes, who had obviously been coached in a strict and sportsmanlike manner, where sailors were watching with fierce concentration to time their one allowed pump for each wave, then retrim and wait for the next wave to come along.
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Posted By: bert
Date Posted: 25 Jul 11 at 4:11am
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There doe`s seem to be a hard to prove easy to do attitude towards this when the wind doesn’t play friendly. I also think that in general you will notice this rule 42 bending ( of the type that I am thinking of ) happening in very light wind meetings rather then anywhere else . ------------- Phantom 1181 AC-227 IC 304 blaze / halo 586 |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 25 Jul 11 at 10:00am
I'd like to see an article next month where Jon tries the same technique in something like a 600. I suspect he'll be putting a trigger to his head as the boat stall and the fleet sail round him  ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Jul 11 at 10:42am
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I remember the last time I did the Tiger trophy... We were sailing a Cherub with a very efficient and small laminar flow daggerboard. Great foil, but its not interested in hanging on the startline: it just stalls out and it takes you about 15 seconds to get control of the boat again. So obviously starts have to be in the nature of a timed run rather than sitting there, and its normally a question of making a run across transoms and spotting a suitable gap if you're faced with a line of stationary boats. Get your gap and you're through with full speed and out the front before they know what's gone past them. The only trouble was this time we were faced with a wall of squad trained 420s, all mathematically exactly spaced, and no frigging gap...
Funnily enough I was doing much the same thing in a fast handicap race on Sunday with the Canoe, and somewhat cut up a Solo who was unaccountably mixed up in the fray... There was a shout of "Oi, Jim, keep clear of our start", at which point about four other voices shouted back "but [name redacted to protect the guilty], its *his* start... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Jul 11 at 11:05am
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Doesn't seem to work very well in scow bowed, flat bottomed Minisails, either. Or in heavy Comet Trios, where you just go sideways for a while.
Maybe the Y&Y articles (whether teaching illegal stuff or not) need to be a little less squaddy-centric? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 25 Jul 11 at 11:15am
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B14 starts certainly are much more "get going 5-10 seconds before the gun" with a bit of jostling for postion- gneral recalls are rather common if there's tide against wind. Takes a bit of time to get flow on the foils, especially as the rudder is tiny. from what I've seen, I reckon most "skiff" type boats sre similar- the stationary "rack up" and "trigger pulling" is a recipe for disaster. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 26 Jul 11 at 3:09pm
in practice, particularly before starts where a lot of boats are over-lapping each other and there is a great deal of 'trimming' going on anyway, I think you'd find it incredibly difficult to find anyone willing or able to bin a competitor on a rule 42, unless a) they're very close to the boat judging and they have an unobstructed view, b) they are the only boat doing it <unlikely> and/or c) they carry it on once the race has started to an obvious extent. Off a line, particularly a crowded line, there will be a lot of boat trimming going on as some head high for clear lanes, others go low, still others try to work for max boatspeed to 'work their lane' |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 23 Aug 11 at 5:36pm
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On the start line each judge works individually. If he/she sees an infringement the penalty is usually an instant reaction. That is the only way it can be, as breaking rule 42 on the start line is rarely repeated, but gives an instant, and possibly race winning advantage. Judges try to be consisitent, and will usually err on the side of caution, but may make mistakes. This is part of the game and competitors have to live with this. In most cases it is not the penalty, but the possibility of the penalty that is the real deterrent. Heeling at the start - the heel to leeward must be consistent with the change of course, and if the boat accelerates then instantly slows then in my judgement the rule has been broken (analogous with roll tacking rules). Very often we will notice a boat at one start and ping him when he repeats at the next start! "Pulling the trigger" in a straight line is a pump and will be penalised. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: bert
Date Posted: 24 Aug 11 at 12:03pm
When I wrote the above I meant the 42 bending was happening IN the race not at the start, Sorry if that was unclear. In this type of instance it will usually happen because of boredham because the sailor can`t get to his / her top speed to make their PY work. It is annoying when it happens IN a race BUT doe`s make me feel quite good that people feel the need to bend / break rule 42 to keep up. ------------- Phantom 1181 AC-227 IC 304 blaze / halo 586 |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 25 Aug 11 at 3:41pm
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Rule 42 states that repeated pumping (pulling the sail in and releases out) or repeated rocking (rolling the boat) is prohibited. When you Trigger pull you sheet in once and bring the boat flat once (hence neither action is repeated). You simply bring the boat up to full speed as quickly as possible. If you watch the start of many top regattas it almost likes like a game of dominos where the whole fleet heel to leeward then come upright, sheet in and go at the same time... ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 25 Aug 11 at 4:16pm
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Jon, you need to quote the start of rule 42.2 - Without limiting the application of rule 42.1, these actions are prohibited: The ISAF interpretation of rule 42.1 states: Basic 4 Except when prohibited under rule 42.3, any single action of the body that propels the boat (in any direction) with the effect one stroke of a paddle is prohibited. Pulling the trigger certainly has the effect of a paddle stroke. If however the boat is rolled in an attempt to change course - usually to luff to a close hauled course - this may meet the requirements of 42.3 (a). In addition, I would interpret (not an official interpretation) the allowable "pump" as the boat reaches the new course in much the same way as when coming out of a roll tack, in that the boat should not be accelerated faster than the normal speed to windward. If the boat acclerates to get up to speed and no further (i;e; does not immediatel slow down as the effects of the pump wear off) I would judge that the heel to luff and the subsequent righting of the boat were commeasurate with the chnage of course. Sounds complicated, but in fact it is relatively easy to judge - especially, in flat water, you can see the boat's bow wave. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 25 Aug 11 at 4:26pm
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Surely you consider getting the boat upto speed is an act of seamanship? I have been through this with many IJs... ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Aug 11 at 4:59pm
Talking from a position of complete ignorance I'm not entirely sure why accelerating the boat with a big roll should be considered more an act of seamanship than stcking your hand or even a paddle over the side to do the same thing. |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 25 Aug 11 at 5:06pm
Because rule 42.1 states: Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform other acts of seamanship, but shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat. There is certainly no mention of the use of a hand or paddle! The point is it is the sail filling that is driving the boat forward (this is not an Ooch which you are not allowed to do <even once>). I have just coached at Sail for Gold and the Olympic test event and I can honestly say 90% of the fleet started in this way (and the other 10% had a bad start!) I did not see anyone get pinged off the start line for anything other than for sculling. ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Aug 11 at 5:45pm
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Well yes: its because 42.1 says "shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat" that I don't understand why accelerating the boat off the line with a big roll is any more legal than using a paddle.
I don't doubt that its widely done, but that doesn't necessarily mean its legal under the letter of the rules. The speed limit in the UK is broekn by just about every driver too... |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 25 Aug 11 at 6:01pm
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Jon, As I am sure you know (it is clearly indicated in the rule book) rule 42 has official interpretations, which are, like the call book, authoritative. The notion of a paddle stroke appears in Interpretation BASIC 4 1. Getting up to speed whilst altering course is permitted (see ROCK 6). 2; Accelerating faster than "getting up to speed" indicates that the roll was not commeasurate with the change of course 3. One roll is permitted if it does NOT have the effect of a paddle stroke - ROCK 2 From my observations most of the coached sailors know all this and their rock to pull the trigger is part of a manoeuvre that takes them from a close reach to close hauled. Only the most outrageous behaviour gets pinged. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 25 Aug 11 at 6:03pm
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The shall not otherwise move their boies to propel to boat refers to Ooching. You are allowed to hike and move your body to trim the boat to the waves which obviously makes the boat faster than if you did not perform these actions.
------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 25 Aug 11 at 6:04pm
------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 25 Aug 11 at 6:08pm
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"The "shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel to boat" refers to Ooching. NOT TRUE - these words are in 42.1 the Basic Rule and apply to all kinetics. Please note BASIC 1 An action that is not listed in rule 42.2 may be prohibited under rule 42.1 Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 25 Aug 11 at 6:14pm
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I guess you have to consider there is a very thin line between using your body to stop the boat slowing down from its maximum speed and moving your body to propel to boat. When you look at most jury calls for body movement they are put under 42.2c. I think you might find it very interesting to watch a grade one Laser regatta from behind the start line! ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 25 Aug 11 at 6:46pm
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Extract from the ISAF Guidance notes on rule 42 for Lasers: STARTS 1. One Roll and One Body Pump A roll or a body pump at the start should not propel the boat. Very often one roll is combined with strong body pump at the completion of the roll what may break the paddle test. Permitted actions: • One roll or one body pump that does not have an effect of one stroke of a paddle. Prohibited actions: • One roll or one body pump propelling the boat with the effect of one stroke of a paddle - BASIC 4 • Repeated rolling the boat - 42.2(b)(1) Gathering evidence: • Is the competitor causing the boat to roll? • Does a single roll or body pump have an effect of one stroke of a paddle? • Is the rolling repeated (more than once)? The rule 42 penalties for the Olympic test event are available on the web Gordon As for getting to a Grade 1 Laser event - I'ml working on that. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 25 Aug 11 at 7:25pm
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Hi Gordon, I must admit I am really not sure what we are still discussing since it has been agreed that it is permitted to roll the boat off the start line... If there was suddenly masses of boats disqualifed at major events for rolling the boat off the start line I am sure everyone would have heard about it .It is far more fun watching the events in real life (you get a much better feel) then reading penalites of the web. I'm not saying I see every penalty (the coaches are not allowed that close to the racing) but we see how the fleet behaves. I would really hope that when everyone is sat at home watching the Olympics next year they don't think all the Olympians are cheating because they are rolling the boats off the start line. I guess I see my roll in the articles to help club sailors sail like the full time sailors do... If you are going to be at Perth, please feel free to come and say hello! I am very pleased my piece for Y&Y has sparked some debate. ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 25 Aug 11 at 8:29pm
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I have agreed that a roll and a righting of the boat in the course of luffing up on the start line is permitted, and from what I have seen that is what most competitors do. The guys who get pinged forget about the change of course, or overcook the righting of the boat. Judges would only ping a boat when they are absolutely sure that the rule has ben infringed - so there are not that many penalties. I won't be in Perth - but, having just been at the Topper Worlds will be at the TR Worlds then the Star Europeans... Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: JohnW
Date Posted: 06 Sep 11 at 11:27am
Jon, Yes this is agreed, however my concern on reading your article in Y&Y (and hence my original post) was that it was not made clear that the the roll on the start has to be part of a change of course for it to be legal. Similarly there was an perhaps an ambiguity in the way the article was phrased (which is repeated in your post above) where you say that you can pump once because repeated pumping is not allowed. As Roger has pointed out this in not the case (other than when changing course). Its a good article, so thank you, but it would have benefited from more clarification to explain that the change of course is what makes the roll legal. ------------- |