Penalty for missing a mark out?

   One of our sailors inadvertantly missed out a mark  in our club race at the weekend.
He was ranked "DSQ" but commented that this seemed a bit harsh and was he not "DNF" instead?
I'm not sure whether he ranks as a non-finisher for not completing the course or whether he would be disqualified under rule 28. (There was no protest hearing - the PRO simply marked him as DSQ)
What is the correct result for someone who doesn't sail the correct course but crosses the finish line?

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chrisarnell1 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Groupie Joined: 06 Sep 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 89	Post Options Post Reply Quote chrisarnell1 Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Penalty for missing a mark out? Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 9:39am
	One of our sailors inadvertantly missed out a mark in our club race at the weekend. He was ranked "DSQ" but commented that this seemed a bit harsh and was he not "DNF" instead? I'm not sure whether he ranks as a non-finisher for not completing the course or whether he would be disqualified under rule 28. (There was no protest hearing - the PRO simply marked him as DSQ) What is the correct result for someone who doesn't sail the correct course but crosses the finish line?
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JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6661	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 10:04am
	There is no penalty for missing a mark, you just have to go back and round it correctly. But... the RC isn't allowed to disqualify without a protest hearing. So there needs to be a protest hearing under "Sailing The Course". If there wasn't he could make a request for redress, and if he appealed to the RYA then he would be reinstated. The case law is, I believe, quite clear on this. However if I were the sailor in question I would point out their mistake to the RC, and at the same time retire from the race and expect to be scored RAF. It would be unsporting to do anything else.

Laser 173312 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 08 May 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 416	Post Options Post Reply Quote Laser 173312 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 11:59am
	Certainly DSQ is wrong. He either DNFed or did 1 lap less that everyone else. Happened to me the other week. I was rounding the last mark to port, not startboard. I thought I'd done 2 laps and I'd not done any. Fine example to my novice crew.

Stuart O Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 22 Jul 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 514	Post Options Post Reply Quote Stuart O Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 12:02pm
	As Jim said RO cannot make that choice without a protest hearing, then only option open is a DSQ, but obviously a quiet word to the competitor, probably would go for RAF

Rupert Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rupert Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 12:09pm
	It only really becomes a problem when the boat in question is certain they have sailed the right course, but others think a mark has been missed. Happened to me once years ago on the river, where there was a mark to sail round in the middle of the river half way round the course. My technique for rounding it (as it was upstream) was to just sail up to parallel to at at the bank, nip out round it and straight back to the bank asap. I was protested in one race for missing the mark out, when in reality I'd been out and back but spent no time out there. Luckily, I found a witness, or I'd have been out of the race. As it is, because of the way it was done, I've not been back to the club in nearly 20 years. Many other times, I've thought Oh, Bugger, and retired, especially on lakes with knitted courses!
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catmandoo Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 16 Mar 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 545	Post Options Post Reply Quote catmandoo Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 12:10pm
	jim c spot on . Great bugbear of mine ROs DSQ when they have absolutely no right too, happened to me once , RO didnt even understand the course he made up ! , dsq me for not doing what he thought I should , I appealed to my club for redress , thrown out in hissy fit (turned out chair had made similar mistake running a race himself ) , no option other than appeal to RYA (as I was pretty peeved by then ) , won the redress and RYA also connfirmed my course sailed correct . However I agree again had I not have sailed correct course I would have retired , if the boaty above realised after race he had sailed the wrong course , he should fall on his sword . to answer question : What is the correct result for someone who doesn't sail the correct course but crosses the finish line? A. Finishing position . and its up to RO to protest, other competitor, or infringer to RAF (his decision - if he sailed wrong course ) sorry for repeating Jim C 's post , but this issue really gets my goats . RO's cannot be judge and jury on these matters , especially when in club racing most ro's dont even know the rules . In our notes to RO's we State . "The Race officer must record finishes and score as finished all boats that have started and finished correctly, you cannot disqualify boats without a hearing for other infringements with exception of the prohibited area (see Sailing instruction’s)," Shame no one reads em ! Edited by catmandoo - 06 Jun 11 at 12:12pm


timeintheboat Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 01 Feb 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 615	Post Options Post Reply Quote timeintheboat Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 1:37pm
	RO definitely in the wrong here. Agree with Catmandoo, ROs DSQing as judge and jury is a bug bear of mine. A common cause of not sailing the correct course is where there is a requirement to sail through the line each lap - especially when the position of the line means making a detour from the route to the next mark. In this case the boat should be DNF as they have not sailed the proper course. For handicap/average lap racing it can mean some much longer lap times!
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RS400atC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011	Post Options Post Reply Quote RS400atC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 2:17pm
	It comes to the same thing effectively as the points are the same. If the competitor does not dispute having sailed the wrong course, they must retire. There was a thread about this last month, RO cannot DSQ without a hearing, but once the competitor has come ashore and found out he's missed a mark, (Been there, done that, several times!), he has no alternative to retiring. If he does not retire, the RO should protest him.

marke Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 16 Jun 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 211	Post Options Post Reply Quote marke Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 3:35pm
	Having reviewed a lot of club SIs in recent weeks (don't ask - I'm just a sad old git) - I notice a lot of them specifically change the RRS to allow the OOD to DSQ a competitor that doesn't sail the correct course without a hearing or redress. So you may want to check what the local SIs say. Mark

alstorer Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 02 Aug 07 Location: Cambridge Online Status: Offline Posts: 2899	Post Options Post Reply Quote alstorer Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 3:46pm
	but is that one of the RRS that can be changed?
	-_ Al