Penalty for missing a mark out?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7912
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 10:45pm
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Topic: Penalty for missing a mark out?
Posted By: chrisarnell1
Subject: Penalty for missing a mark out?
Date Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 9:39am
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One of our sailors inadvertantly missed out a mark in our club race at the weekend.
He was ranked "DSQ" but commented that this seemed a bit harsh and was he not "DNF" instead?
I'm not sure whether he ranks as a non-finisher for not completing the course or whether he would be disqualified under rule 28. (There was no protest hearing - the PRO simply marked him as DSQ)
What is the correct result for someone who doesn't sail the correct course but crosses the finish line? ------------- RS300 393 OK GBR 21 |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 10:04am
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There is no penalty for missing a mark, you just have to go back and round it correctly.
But... the RC isn't allowed to disqualify without a protest hearing. So there needs to be a protest hearing under "Sailing The Course". If there wasn't he could make a request for redress, and if he appealed to the RYA then he would be reinstated. The case law is, I believe, quite clear on this. However if I were the sailor in question I would point out their mistake to the RC, and at the same time retire from the race and expect to be scored RAF. It would be unsporting to do anything else. |
Posted By: Laser 173312
Date Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 11:59am
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Certainly DSQ is wrong. He either DNFed or did 1 lap less that everyone else. Happened to me the other week. I was rounding the last mark to port, not startboard. I thought I'd done 2 laps and I'd not done any.
Fine example to my novice crew.
 ------------- |
Posted By: Stuart O
Date Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 12:02pm
| As Jim said RO cannot make that choice without a protest hearing, then only option open is a DSQ, but obviously a quiet word to the competitor, probably would go for RAF |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 12:09pm
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It only really becomes a problem when the boat in question is certain they have sailed the right course, but others think a mark has been missed. Happened to me once years ago on the river, where there was a mark to sail round in the middle of the river half way round the course. My technique for rounding it (as it was upstream) was to just sail up to parallel to at at the bank, nip out round it and straight back to the bank asap. I was protested in one race for missing the mark out, when in reality I'd been out and back but spent no time out there. Luckily, I found a witness, or I'd have been out of the race. As it is, because of the way it was done, I've not been back to the club in nearly 20 years.
Many other times, I've thought Oh, Bugger, and retired, especially on lakes with knitted courses! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 12:10pm
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jim c spot on .
Great bugbear of mine ROs DSQ when they have absolutely no right too, happened to me once , RO didnt even understand the course he made up ! , dsq me for not doing what he thought I should , I appealed to my club for redress , thrown out in hissy fit (turned out chair had made similar mistake running a race himself ) , no option other than appeal to RYA (as I was pretty peeved by then ) , won the redress and RYA also connfirmed my course sailed correct .
However I agree again had I not have sailed correct course I would have retired , if the boaty above realised after race he had sailed the wrong course , he should fall on his sword .
to answer question :
What is the correct result for someone who doesn't sail the correct course but crosses the finish line?
A. Finishing position . and its up to RO to protest, other competitor, or infringer to RAF (his decision - if he sailed wrong course )
sorry for repeating Jim C 's post , but this issue really gets my goats .
RO's cannot be judge and jury on these matters , especially when in club racing most ro's dont even know the rules .
In our notes to RO's we State .
"The Race officer must record finishes and score as finished all boats that have started and finished correctly, you cannot disqualify boats without a hearing for other infringements with exception of the prohibited area (see Sailing instruction’s)," Shame no one reads em ! ------------- |
Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 1:37pm
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RO definitely in the wrong here. Agree with Catmandoo, ROs DSQing as judge and jury is a bug bear of mine. A common cause of not sailing the correct course is where there is a requirement to sail through the line each lap - especially when the position of the line means making a detour from the route to the next mark. In this case the boat should be DNF as they have not sailed the proper course. For handicap/average lap racing it can mean some much longer lap times! ------------- Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 2:17pm
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It comes to the same thing effectively as the points are the same.
If the competitor does not dispute having sailed the wrong course, they must retire.
There was a thread about this last month, RO cannot DSQ without a hearing, but once the competitor has come ashore and found out he's missed a mark, (Been there, done that, several times!), he has no alternative to retiring.
If he does not retire, the RO should protest him.
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Posted By: marke
Date Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 3:35pm
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Having reviewed a lot of club SIs in recent weeks (don't ask - I'm just a sad old git) - I notice a lot of them specifically change the RRS to allow the OOD to DSQ a competitor that doesn't sail the correct course without a hearing or redress. So you may want to check what the local SIs say. Mark |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 3:46pm
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but is that one of the RRS that can be changed? ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Mister Nick
Date Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 4:37pm
When I first started racing I used to miss a LOT of marks (as in, at least one per race) and I got disqualified every time. Not sure if that's within the rules, but that's how they dealt with me. 
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Posted By: asterix
Date Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 5:07pm
afaics, yes it is (although RRS86 could be written more clearly)
SI can only change RRS in accordance with RRS86
RRS 86: includes "a racing rule shall not be changed unless permitted in the rule itself or as follows"
RRS 28 does not provide for rule 28 to be changed
But RRS 86.1(b) allows SI to change rule 28
I'm sure someone will tell me if I got this wrong!
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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 6:03pm
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But, unless it was the last mark of the course that the boat missed, "Finish" is a Definition, not rule 28, and as such cannot be changed?
------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 6:11pm
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This sort of case is an excellent one for the adjudication process - the RO and the competitor can get together with a qualified 3rd party and talk the matter through, and the position can either be left or the competitor retire at the end of it, depending upon the outcome of the chat.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 06 Jun 11 at 7:13pm
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at one of my clubs the Ro can be judge and Jury in certain instances, BUT, not when marks are missed out - it is then up to other competitors to protest, or for the infringer to be invited to retire by the RO. In the SI's at this club, it is an immediate DSQ to sail between the inner distance and the committee boat at any time, and the RO can DSQ with no redress at any time during the race, so if you go in the gap on your third lap, you could be out... May not seem fair but everybody sails under the same rules. It is not nice (as an RO) telling someone that they are not ranked as a finisher, because the sailed through the gap!! We do try to remove either the ID or the committee boat to reduce problems!
So it may be that a study of the SI's would give you the answer, if it is not specifically mentioned, then the RO can not DSQ without a hearing, however, he may protest the competitor for not sailing a proper course.. Jon ------------- Blaze 711 |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 17 Jun 11 at 8:18am
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This is a common cause of redress hearings - the RO cannot DSQ a boat. RO can penalise boats for a limited number of incidents including rule 28 AT THE FINISH LINE. For anything else there must be a protest. There have been frequent attempts to allow Race Committees to DSQ for not sailing the course but they have always failed. The SIs can allow a change to 28 but must also modify 63.1 and A5 to allow a penalty for not sailing correct course. Now for a quiz question - can you correct a course error after having crossed the finish line? Gordon ------------- Gordon |