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Is inflation impacting Nationals Attendance?
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Sep 22 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by MikeBz

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If you offered anyone in the top 25% of the fleet the opportunity of being pathfinder tomorrow I very much doubt they would take it, even under the current format.   Taking a flier on the first beat is just too risky, more so without it being a considered decision based on the actual conditions of the day.
10th is about 25% down a lot of fleets, maybe 20% down the smaller size of fleet where gate starts are being considered? I don't think the number '10' is set in stone, for a really big fleet some other position might be preferable.                             


 From a race committee perspective, you want a pathfinder who people regard as 'beatable' to encourage the bulk of the fleet to start early/middle of the gate, not have some massive rammy two and a half minutes into a 3 minute gate.                                             

 

From a competitor perspective, I think the 'advice' to start late if you're not a 'gold fleet dude' is poor, it's a recipe for being in a lot of congestion. A lot to be said for going early and seeing how the top sailors do it.
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Posts: 30 		Post Options Post Options   Quote seasailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 22 at 9:05am
Not sure about only 9 finishing, but I do recall an Ent Worlds where a load of the fleet gave up half way through the practice race and they still made whoever came 10th in it the pathfinder for the 1st race of the worlds.

It led to almost everyone trying to start as early as possible.

And you guessed it, the pathfinder was first around the windward mark!
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Posts: 403 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GybeFunny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 22 at 7:57am
I remember back in the day that the pathfinder in race 1 was the boat who came 10th in the practise race, I wonder if that ever led to just 9 boats completing the practise race and the rest not going through the finish?
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 22 at 7:18am
I have been pathfinder and led at the windward mark, so it cuts both ways.  I prefer gate starts in big fleets, it removes a whole element of faffing around.  They deskill the start a bit, but hanging around for the perfect line start can be a big disincentive to attending championships.  I do think that when they are used the first beat should be a long one, otherwise the more level start means that the windward mark can be unpleasantly busy, particularly when short championship races seem to be derigeur 

Edited by davidyacht - 06 Sep 22 at 7:19am
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 22 at 5:49am
I have been Pathfinder once….two runs……on the first pressure and a couple of shifts meant that there were a couple of boats almost paralleling us and abeam at about 3 minutes in to a 5 minute gate. That start was abandoned….it illustrates that the disadvantage to the pathfinder could be enormous, and that the micro gains are going on all the time for boats unconstrained.
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Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 22 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Consider this though, you are 2nd or 3rd row of a line start but able to tack off immediately into clean air, would you tack or play the shifts close to the other boats? I know what I'd do, 3 minutes on the wrong tack but in clean air is usually preferable to 3 mins on the write tack but buried...

Sounds a no brainer for someone finishing mid fleet. 

But starting 2/3rd row isn't normally in the race plan for a boat finishing top ten. 

For the pathfinder I think the advantage is small when it's there, but more often than not the boat in question would be better taking their chances with top ten boat speed in a place of their choosing. And the results back that up. 

People seem happy with it. Apart from in special circumstances I would never give up a point to be pathfinder. 
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Posts: 85 		Post Options Post Options   Quote deadrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 22 at 9:38pm
Sailors have strategically avoided the 10th place only to be bumped up a place or two due to DSQs by their betters (in that race). One can be too clever by half....
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 22 at 9:29pm
How long is a typical first beat? Lets say 1 mile so, in most boats, no less than 15 minutes. The RYA suggest that 3 minutes is the max line length before the PF can tack away. Sure he's forced to go left for 3 minutes but then he has clean air and can choose to tack at will. I'll accept that there is a small disadvantage for that first 3 minutes but after that, unless the right side is clearly favoured, he still has clean air and is free to choose from not too far left of the middle of the track. Gybing round behind the gate boat seems fair to me, if it's so windy that you can't gybe reliably it's probably a lottery anyway, but maybe the advantage of tacking is equally small and compensates for been tied to port tack for that first 3 minutes.

Consider this though, you are 2nd or 3rd row of a line start but able to tack off immediately into clean air, would you tack or play the shifts close to the other boats? I know what I'd do, 3 minutes on the wrong tack but in clean air is usually preferable to 3 mins on the write tack but buried...
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Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 22 at 8:45pm
The argument about whether people tussle for tenth place cuts both ways.
You do need a willing pathfinder to have a successful start though. A few boat lengths of grace removes a bit of urge to drop the mainsheet with a 5 degree knock.

There's no evidence that it's a big advantage. And if it's a small one, it's one that only happens once a regatta. 

Personally, I would gladly take the point off 9th place and take my chances competing for clean air on a part of the course of my choosing.

Very few people make the top ten sailing in dirty air, so I am not sure many would view sailing in clean air for the first 4 minutes as a massive advantage. However I am pretty sure very few boats in the top ten sail the first 4 minutes on the same tack regardless of lift or header. 

Another way of looking at it is, if you can't make 2 boat lengths on a boat that can't tack on shifts... then, well, top tens probably aren't your event target. Being ahead of the pathfinder at the first cross should be 'par' for any top boat (this is actually a good exercise I used to do in coaching, especially those new to 29er to work out what shifts they should be tacking on). 


Edited by Mozzy - 05 Sep 22 at 8:51pm
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote MikeBz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 22 at 7:03pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by MikeBz

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

IIRC gybing round was in the RRS appendix relating to gate starts when I read it but it was many ears ago. WRT people being willing to be pathfinder I don't think that would ever have been an issue, just like any other rule if you are 10th you are pathfinder in the next race, end of...

But if it was massively undesirable then you may get a strange game playing out when the 10th placed boat approaches the finish line...  "After you, no after you...".

Yes, that was always the story but with the present system where a pathfinder gets a net 3-5 lengths head start and clean wind up the whole beat the 9th place boat is likely to play the same games...

If you offered anyone in the top 25% of the fleet the opportunity of being pathfinder tomorrow I very much doubt they would take it, even under the current format.   Taking a flier on the first beat is just too risky, more so without it being a considered decision based on the actual conditions of the day.
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