I was watching the D-Zero Nationals over the weekend as I had quite a few friends going down for it and noticed their attendance was right down in numbers with 27 entries at Brixham compared to last year's 56 at Largs. I would have thought that Brixham would have attracted a good turnout from a currently active class like the D-Zs and that would have compensated in some way for the effects of inflation / cost of living crisis etc, and I'd say it's unusual too see such an attendance drop the year after a Nationals in Scotland (even as a Scot I recognise that travelling north of Watford has it's challenges for some ). 

This is really a follow on to the http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13943&title=open-meetings" rel="nofollow - Open Meeting thread , but are other classes expecting significant disruption to their major event attendance this year from the rising costs of fuel etc?

PS- Kudos to the 7 Scots who stepped up and made the 1000+ mile round trip to attend and support their class, even if it was largely blown off.

I think some of the things that effected the attendance were class and venue related.

Last year the class were a little concerned ( in my view) about Largs so went to a lot of time and trouble drumming up support for the event . This year I felt they thought Brixham would sell its self and then suddenly realised with a few weeks to go that it hadn’t but it’s too late by then . People had arranged other things. 

Also re costs at nationals  there is more than just fuel costs. Last year once you got to Largs , you could camp on site or just park up your motor home job done . This year at Brixham , no camping on site, cars and motor homes have to pay to park in public car parks. You weren’t even allowed to leave your road trailer on site , you either had to find somewhere else to park it or the club would arrange for it to be stored at a local rugby club for a fee. It all seemed a bit of a ball ache to me , looking in from the outside side and maybe it put regulars off too , who knows.

It makes no difference to me , I won’t be doing the D-zero or any nationals ever again but maybe the D-zero should look at venues that are a little more cost and sailor friendly going forward . 

In their defence, being responsible for choosing a venue for any nationals is a c@@p job because where every you choose, someone will not be happy 

* I wonder if £300 off a new sail helped boost the numbers last year  ?

What were the numbers at those events Pre Covid??

2) Cost of accommodation has gone up dramatically

3) Cost of entry has risen

4) Our calendar is from loaded this year with a Euro's in June and Nationals in July, but nothing in August or September

5) This will be the 4th time in 5 year we've been to Weymouth (once at Castle Cove). It was great that WPNSA stepped up in 2020 last minute. But unfortunate that the RS Games chose Weymouth this year. 

6) There doesn't seem to have been much effort to sell the RS Games this year, at least in the 800 class. No social advertised. Very little in the way of prizes advertised. RS taking the event centrally can work, as you have cross over with lots of other sailing mates... but this time it feels a little bit tame compared to 2011 and 2018... also the 200's and 400's are doing their own thing

7) Crews now have to be class members (response to covid drop in membership). I think this just makes finding a crew harder. 

The 200's currently have 135 pre-entered for their Nationals at HISC. That's already the 2nd biggest Nationals they've ever had and will probably end up being the biggest two person dinghy Nationals of this decade. 

I'm not ruling out doing a Nationals again, but I might well wait for the event to come to me.

Don't most of the nicer venues decide what classes they're having years in advance?

So the blame for choosing the venue is normally obscure by the time the event happens.

I know the solo's and OK's overlap. Salcombe Merlins and FF15's overlap this weekend. The RS Games will take away sailors that sail in multiple fleets. 

I also wonder if local events will be bigger than normal this year with people staying at home, so will events like Chichester Harbor week be better attended?

Personally I feel it may be more of a COVID knock on. Last year people were gagging to do events and get away plus I think there were less events, so people picked a nationals and committed, whereas this year there is much more going on, plus the ability to go abroad, so more demands on time.

I am still doing my nationals, but have cancelled the accommodation and am camping to keep costs down.

Covid is clearly still an issue, but ramped fuel prices, high entry fees and accomodation and simply not having the time is making events a right-off for so many now. Even I'm contemplating reducing my events to just the 2023 Nationals because of this.   

Wow - I've just look that up and £295 is pretty steep for sure. That with the combination of peak holiday season and a festival being on at the same time is going to make it quite a painful week financially for some. The webpage is only showing 25 entered compared to 50 last year.

The 200's have done the opposite, hardly anyone going to the RS games (2 day regatta) and 120+ for the nationals in Hayling island. 

Realistically the location of the nationals plays a big part and Scotland probably puts a lot of people off compared to the south coast.

I would agree some of the event organising this year has not been great. Multiple events cancelled days before the event and even loss of accommodation costs because of it.  

Only goes to show doesn’t it.  I did a 200 nationals at North Berwick - it was a huge drive, the weather was sh*te and the first three/four days sailing was lost to fog.  Visiting Edinburgh was good, but I have no intention of repeating the experience. Cornwall for me!

If you buy into a class, you take on board the ethos and the way it's run. Unfortuantely that can narrow the choice of boats which are worth sailing 'seriously'. IMHO, if you're going to run a Nationals, then that needs to be the prime event of the year. Running a McNationals and then offering alternative premium events in locations many people might find cheaper and preferable seems like a risky strategy. If the 400s only get 20-odd entries to their champs in Scotland, that may mean that the 'bronze fleet' are not getting a great 'Nationals' experience. It's a lot of money if the racing is not brilliant for you as a paying punter.Classes which want new people to join in their big events basically can only poach them from other classes, or attract 'club' sailors to have a go at raising their game by attending opens and Nationals.

...absolutely - they should have deferred the Scottish based RS400 Nationals to 2023 and utilised the RS Games for the event...now all it's done is dilute the entries to both events. But with increasing costs of living I can't see how 2023 is going to be/get any better. 

Just to remind everyone the question was not whether Nationals north of Watford are worth going to (of course they are), but rather compared to last year are we in for a sharp drop in numbers generally this year?

Scorpion numbers seem strong (maxed out 75, vs 65 last year).  Merlin Salcombe week seems strong.  Solo numbers are strong.  Maybe the number of strong classes is declining, but the biggest remain big?

I think that these events have to stand up on the host clubs balance sheet to make them worthwhile, even if a they rely on a lot of volunteers, and health and safety issues don’t make managing these events any easier.

I would suggest that accommodation costs are by far the most challenging aspect of attending a championship or sailing week.

I would also suggest that by far the long term challenging aspect to the numbers will be an aging demographic, there comes a point where sitting around waiting for the wind to fill in or stabilise ceases to be much fun.

Take the Solo and the ILCA both very  healthy classes that a lot of sailers love . If they were the only two singlehanded classes , I would give up sailing . 

Most people in history, and in the world today, have never had the chance to feel a hull carve along under sail; those minutes of joy when a first puffs of a summer sea breeze filters across the water and fills the sail; the stunning beauty of the sunlight hitting wave crests; that lovely sensation of a bow coming off a wave and the curves of the hull meeting the water again; the artful contest of skill in a tacking duel with a friend; and so many more wondrous moments.

Every class in this amazing sport has so many wonders to offer the mind, soul and body.

But it is silly now. In a bored 5 minutes, I named 30 different single handers, and that was lumping all the Laser variants as 1, all the Aero variants as 1 (and all the Minisail variants as 1  )

The old classes never die - the aforementioned Minisail being one.

River banks to miss, boats from other classes coming back the other way, unqualified tourists in motor boats to avoid, and that's just round the cans outside the club. Add to that  the odd sail down river to a pub have lunch and sail back and it makes for a much more interesting sail..

Regatta week in two weeks and a bit time, I'm looking forward to 7 days sailing and a function at the club every night. Here's a link to last years regatta,

It's an open event the Monday to Friday....

Who knows, with foreign holidays and flights getting ever-so much more expensive, then perhaps a nationals event somewhere decent on UK coastline, tied into a wider family holiday, might not be done-for quite yet.

Zones squads are no more, and I think even national squads have been stripped back at junior (under 16s). This was a pre-covid change but I am not sure how long the results of this change will take to filter through, but I would expect to see less sailors at national junior events as a result (zone squad sailors used to be strongly encouraged to go to the nationals). Hopefully the drop in numbers are because more are spending more time in their regions travelling less and sailing more. 

There are similar signs of drops in RS Tera, Feva and Optimist, but it's hard to separate out from covid impacts, venue selection and now inflation. 

"RTGs were introduced to address challenges facing the sport including declining participation at club level, increasing regional disparity, an over-emphasis on results in junior age groups and the increasing costs and environmental impact of training and racing nationally at a young age."

I just got back from Merlin Week. Bit of a deviation from the sailing I normally do, but also very fun. Different, but works well for the same reason that Fed week works well (or most regatta weeks for that matter). One race a day so plenty of time for family and very little time waiting between races.

For better or worse the events tend to be driven by those who are more concerned with the racing than the social. For 50% of attendees I would imagine the racing is more a way to tie in a common interest and as good talking point for the bar as it is a pure text of their sailing prowess. 

But even toward the social end of the fleet people often over egg the number of races they want... If you poll the fleet facebook group 5 months out from the event I would Imagine more races often getting more votes... but come the 4th races of a 20 knot day with a few recalls and breakages thrown in, then the attrition rate is stark, not just on the water but the knock on impact to the bar takings the same evening too!  

this sort of family friendly format definitely has some legs. My club recently held a regatta week, with 1st race in the evening, so that you didn't have to take the day off to go sailing, but equally this would allow good family time and combine an enjoyable regatta.

the last national champs I did was a windy week at Hunstanton (great club, and decent race management) the vagaries of the british summer was that the 1st 2 days were spent looking at the waves from the prom - non sailing family off on their own all day, and then sailing family either too knackered to move or stuck at the necessary but rather dull class AGM or some other social event in the evening. Then on the last night enduring the seemingly never ending trophy presentations before slogging back up north for 5 hours home. Difficult to sell a nationals to the household again. 

Great class, lovely people but class nationals are not the way to spend your only family holiday in the year. 

probably a different story for the unhindered 20 something though!!

sounds like a perfect compromise

I'm not in the UK these days, but I can't imagine the prospect of a conventional UK holiday would hold much appeal.  I'd honestly rather stay at home given there was nothing wrong with my gaff.

Chuck a bit sailing/windsurfing/paddleboarding into the mix, guaranteed - not just 'promised', then the calculus changes.... but too much sailing, then it's not really fair on the rest of the family either.

This is so true. The other point when you have a mix of competitors ranging from those who will sit in the boat park till 19:00 on the off chance of a race to those who after an hour want to build sandcastles/go to the eden project/lands end/etc etc its really hard to strike a balance.

The balance - in some ways unfortunately - has to be towards the family sailors as the the upper echelon will come to your nationals almost regardless if the racing is good. Put the families off and youll struggle to make 25 boats. In pretty much any fleet.

Don't bother going to Lands End, it's an over-priced, disappointing waste of a day out. Plenty of better things to do in Cornwall

The new sail for the 'regular' 600 is now a square top. Actually, it could even have been one of the actual brand-new boats that have recently been built. 

There's been quite the revival with the 600.

Great event, I would go again. We got 8 races over three days in good breezes, well over 20 knots at times but that was manageable for a 69 year old back of the fleet club sailor. One race a day would not work for me as I go the these events to sail not to see the sighs.

And how many sailed countrywide on a weekend today? how times change

The 230 Enterprises, were they in one fleet? Gate starts?

97 Solos

numbers look amazing

Now 169 paid up and entered. 174 registered. I guess there will be a handful of dropouts, but looks like it will almost certainly surpass the 159 we had in 2011 (although I believe there was 164 entered to that one).

https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/251685/2022-Allen-OK-Nationals-at-Herne-Bay-overall" rel="nofollow - https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/251685/2022-Allen-OK-Nationals-at-Herne-Bay-overall

Mmm buy a ILCA again . Been there got the tee shirt. Have wasted too many years sailing that 1960s classic. Would rather give up sailing than have to sail one again 

Yes Supernova's at limit

Solos extended limit from 90 to 110 but 'only' got 97

These together with excellent RS200 and id say its more:

"Is inflation impacting smaller classes Nationals Attendance?"

Its asking a lot to spend hundreds of pounds to come 8th in a 20 boat nationals

It costs the same to come 40th at a 100 boat nationals but its a much better event, more atmosphere.

Same age old problem too many classes

I thought we weren't supposed to agree on stuff Duncan 

combination of both?

I know some people who are happy to not class race at club level and treat it as casual or training sailing towards their events schedule.

If you are someone who maybe does 1 in 3 nationals and a couple of opens a year, I still suspect the draw of a club fleet is a primary driver for some; not those odd away matches.

And I know the Laser is old, but the prototype was first sailed in 1970.

Pity you don't, and give up posting on this forum. No one would miss you. 

Lol very true , it does happen after all both Gandhi and Hitler were vegetarians 😂😂😂

Oh dear we are a angry little person this morning aren’t we 😂 Did you spend too much time in the sun yesterday( Did Rasty make you work outside again ? )  . 😀.

Just for you, as you seem to be new on here ( and yes I do remember your first post 😀) I will explain my position again . 

I have nothing against the ILCA or ILCA sailors , I sailed one for 20 years and don’t regret it, it was the best option for me at that time . And even today , if big fleet sailing is most important to a you it’s still a good choice. 

If, like me, big fleet sailing it not the most important thing, then there are newer, better and much nicer  boats to sail. 

 

Have a nice day 

True think they used slightly different methods though. 

Seriously though I think we agree on a lot of stuff. 

Certainly more than Gandhi and Hitler 

I hope you've got some breeze with the calmer sunshine mate, enjoy the sunny fruits of your hard graft!

If you talking sailing . My results in the D-zero are not as consistent  compared to my British moth or ILCA results. Last Sunday I just couldn’t  catch anyone , this evening in a very similar wind strength I only lost out to a very well sailed British moth ( guess who lol ? ) by a few metres and beat a sailor in a supersofa who I’ve only beaten a handful of times in the 20+ years I’ve sailed a L.S.S.C. The bottom line is I just enjoy sailing the D-zero even if things don’t go my way and you cannot hope for anything more. 

I have nothing against the ILCA or ILCA sailors , I sailed one for 20 years and don’t regret it, it was the best option for me at that time . And even today , if big fleet sailing is most important to a you it’s still a good choice. 

If, like me, big fleet sailing it not the most important thing, then there are newer, better and much nicer  boats to sail. 

 

Have a nice day 

Fair enough, but (and it's a fairly big "but" IMHO) is a forum better if people sling insults at boats merely because they are not good choices for them at a particular time?  Or is a forum better if people respect the boats that others love?

It was a little warm Monday and Tuesday .

But winds on Sunday and Wednesday evening  were good 13mph base  gusting to 22mph and the temperature was in the mid 20s( plus the wind didn’t even die of on the Wednesday ) .

Perfect sailing conditions for me and the cold white wine afterwards was good too. 

So my question is that whilst the Laser seems like a good nationals attendance how would it fair if it was not an Olympic pathway boat? It seems to me like the numbers above would catastrophically drop to the point where they would be well below that of a Solo or even things like D Zeros and Aeros. The ILCA 7 numbers would worry me at current rates.  

I actually think Olympic status hurts the full rig attendances. Maybe not at a club level, but at nationals events and rankers etc. The very top Olympic squaddies might not be there, but the there are quite a few who are close to that level. I mean, most adult fleets don't have many sailors, even at the top, who hold aspiration to win an Olympic medal, and they don't really need out hiking by a 20 years old to understand that. 

The laser Olympic status probably does help the radial, 4.7 in the same way the 49er helps the 29er and the 470 the 420. The youth boats is a place where you can buy in to the dream without having directly crushed by those living the dream. 

I mean, if Olympic status really helps a class, then where are the big attendances for the 49er, Nacra and 470? 

It was a little warm Monday and Tuesday .

But winds on Sunday and Wednesday evening  were good 13mph base  gusting to 22mph and the temperature was in the mid 20s( plus the wind didn’t even die of on the Wednesday ) .

Perfect sailing conditions for me and the cold white wine afterwards was good too. 

A pointless self centred post of no interest to anyone.

Forums are about opinions and with out them there is no forum . Look I dislike loads of boats Solos being the top of the list and include anything roto moulded apart from the Feva. BUT that doesn’t mean I am disrespecting the boats , the people that sail them or the reasons they have chosen them .It just means I don’t like them, end of nothing more. If someone wants to take a comment about a boat they love as a  personal insult that’s says more about them than the original poster. 

The bottom line is as long as people come to the forum , in good humour , play nice and stay away from personal insults, people will continue to post . 

wrong, bravo Duncan; I'm glad you enjoyed it

Demelza - it's a chat forum mate, chill your boots; or at least empty the piss out of them before you walk into the wet bar.

Thanks for your input . Have a nice day 

money? You can buy an ILCA for £8k sail it for a year or 3 then sell it for half that. A Mackay 470 is around 3 times that to buy, it lasts a year at best, after which the hull’s a banana fit only for the bin, in racing terms at least. Stupid construction rules insisting on polyester only “to keep cost down”. At least a 505, for 470 money, uses decent materials and is thereby reasonably competitive for years not months. 

Cats may be even worse, with the lifecycle longevity of a flying ant, it seems to me. There’s always a fundamental revision or new, better cat class along in a minute. In a cat you pay no attention to a 5 degree shift. In an ILCA miss it and lose several places. 

Then you factor in the relative decline of double-handers. 

Be interesting though to see how the Finn does attracting new blood now its no longer olympic, but surely not as well as it used to. 

All in all, the ILCA seems to hit all the sweet spots and it can only be good news that Rastegar is out of the equation too.

but the side view line-drawings would not look so cool and rakish (geddit) if the rudder angle was not the same as the daggerboard’s  

And it needs to crazy, crazy windy before my Laser takes preference to the 100 for a hoon. But I did the ILCA Masters Inlands last autumn, first for 12 years. It was light but I did actually enjoy the racing, made more fun by being in the mix with my old knocker.

But, they're all two person boats so harsh to compare to a single hander. Plus you get a fair more boat for your buck, so I am not sure how much cost is a factor. Probably better comparing the cost of a merlin to a 470, a foiling phantom to the Nacra and an 800 to the 49er. 

49er, Nacra and even to an extent the 470 are limited on venues where you can sail which further hampers amateur involvement. So there may be an element of this which certainly doesn't affect the laser.

But mostly I think people don't sail these classes because there will be ~10 boats who sailing full time and life is structured around sailing. Plus they're pretty good anyways. And those same boats add little social value* as they have to act professional. Not a great way to build a domestic fleet. Yet, despite this, the laser seems to get good turnouts. But I would struggle to say they really benefit from being an Olympic class (in the full rig). 

*full time sailors outside their professional bot are a lot more fun. But they're also easier to beat and are essentially on holiday. 

I mean, obvs! Nice rakish comment btw