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davejones View Drop Down
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Posts: 5 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davejones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rule 69 again
    Posted: 03 May 15 at 7:58pm
views please guys and gals

I've been trying to choose a club to sail at and 2 I would say have very aggressive sailors who basically bully their way around the lake!

At one lake I saw someone who had no rights to water come in screaming starboard at a boat which had 2 young girls in it who froze like statues allowing him to push in and leave them in shock, the said boat on another occasion just bullied a boat that had right of way to push him off course, but he managed to turn it around!!!! and then shouted that the other person should get out of his way.

Now I know that doesn't sound too bad, we've all pushed our luck! but these where just a few of what I saw. 

Now where does that stand in Rule 69? 

My views would be that being a bully on the course is wrong

the sailor is a repeat offender
he showed aggression against other sailors
he showed little remorse against other sailors
these lapses of good conduct where viewed by a large group of people (who where feeding ducks at the side of the lake!!!)
and I would say put a few people off showing interest in sailing

so, from what I understand, its a closed case of rule 69?

or am I missing something?

thanks
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JimC View Drop Down
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Case 47 in the case book reads as follows.
CASE 47
Rule 2, Fair Sailing
A boat that deliberately hails ‘Starboard’ when she knows she is on port tack has not acted fairly, and has broken rule 2.

Assumed Facts
An experienced helmsman of a port-tack boat hails ‘Starboard’ to a beginner who, although on starboard tack, not being sure of himself and probably being scared of having his boat holed, tacks to port to avoid a collision. No protest is lodged.
One school of thought argues that it is fair game, because if a helmsman does not know the rules, that is his own hard luck. The other school rejects this argument, on the grounds that it is quite contrary to the spirit of the rules to deceive a competitor in that way.
It is known that such a trick is often played, particularly when novices are involved.

Question
In such a case, in addition to breaking rule 10, has the port-tack boat broken rule 2?

Answer
A boat that deliberately hails ‘Starboard’ when she knows she is on port tack has not acted fairly and has broken rule 2. The protest committee might also consider taking action under rule 69.


However, if the situation isn't as open and shut as a case of hailing starboard when on port it might be more difficult to satisfy a PC that action should be taken

Edited by JimC - 03 May 15 at 9:17pm
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 15 at 3:01am
Originally posted by davejones

I've been trying to choose a club to sail at and 2 I would say have very aggressive sailors who basically bully their way around the lake!
It's up to you how you choose a club.

You may wish to focus on clubs that have signed up to the RYA Charter and advertise this fact.  It appears to address your concerns.
Originally posted by davejones

At one lake I saw someone who had no rights to water come in screaming starboard at a boat which had 2 young girls in it who froze like statues allowing him to push in and leave them in shock, the said boat on another occasion just bullied a boat that had right of way to push him off course, but he managed to turn it around!!!! and then shouted that the other person should get out of his way.

Now I know that doesn't sound too bad, we've all pushed our luck! but these where just a few of what I saw. 
To knowingly and intentionally break a rule is a clear breach of sportsmanship and breaks rule 2 Fair Sailing.

A boat that breaks a rule through ignorance or misundersanding of the rule, or misjudgment does nothing unsportsmanlike, absent knowingness or intentionality.

Sailors themselves are expected to enforce the rules (RRS Basic Principles Sportsmanship and the Rules).

If no boat protested, then it may be assumed that the competitors in the race did not view the incidents in the same light as you do.
Originally posted by davejones

Now where does that stand in Rule 69? 
so, from what I understand, its a closed case of rule 69?
I take it you mean 'an open and shut case'.

A rule 69 case is not 'opened' until a protest committee decides to call a hearing (rule 69.2( a )).

It's not 'closed' until the protest committee is 'comfortably satisfied' that a competitor committed misconduct to a gross degree (rule 69.2( c )) or decides that rule 69.1 has not been broken.

Originally posted by davejones

My views would be that being a bully on the course is wrong
You have chosen a 'vogue word', very fashionable in kindergarten social engineering and Health and Safety litigation, but whose meaning usually means whatever the user wants it to mean.

The word does not appear in the Racing Rules of Sailing.

But I'll go along with you.  Being a bully is wrong.

But many people are bullies and don't get sent to gaol for it.
Originally posted by davejones

the sailor is a repeat offender
It has not yet been proved that the sailor has offended even once
Originally posted by davejones

he showed aggression against other sailors
Sailing is a serious competitive sport.  Competitors are expected to show aggression against other competitors.  For a more extensive discussion of this see http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9463&KW=psychological+dominance&PID=1322743&title=rule-69-what-are-the-limits-intimidation#1322743
Originally posted by davejones

he showed little remorse against other sailors 
Given that no breach of anything has been proved, why would he and what opportunity has he had?

In any case, so what?
Originally posted by davejones

 
these lapses of good conduct where viewed by a largegroup of people (who where feeding ducks at the side of the lake!!!)
and I would say put a few people off showing interest in sailing
Perphaps other people lack your sensibility.


Edited by Brass - 04 May 15 at 3:07am
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transient View Drop Down
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Posts: 715 		Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 15 at 11:10am
The competition V's cooperation dilemma that doesn't need to be a dilemma because there's a time and place for both modes of operation. The problem arises when some folk apply a particular mode dogmatically.

It really does depend on what your competing for or what your cooperating towards. For example: A sunday afternoon club race doesn't really warrant attempts at the "psychological intimidation and dominance" of a fellow racer IMO. But of course, life being life and all that, others may beg to differ.



Edited by transient - 04 May 15 at 11:29am
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JimC View Drop Down
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Different clubs may and will have a different ethos and attitude to behaviour on the water. This is good and even healthy. If the attitudes you see displayed at a club are not ones you would be comfortable with, then just cross it off the list.

But from a distance and off the water it might not always be easy to distinguish shouting at another boat to intimidate them as a means of cheating (as case 47 describes) from shouting at another boat because they are in fact give way boat and don't seem aware of it, you having misjudged the overlap situation from a distance as is notoriously easy to do.

If you are really concerned you could always write to the club. That would be a report which would, I think, suffice for the club to hold an RRS69 hearing should they deem it necessary.



Edited by JimC - 04 May 15 at 12:03pm
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 15 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by JimC

Different clubs may and will have a different ethos and attitude to behaviour on the water. This is good and even healthy. If the attitudes you see displayed at a club are not ones you would be comfortable with, then just cross it off the list.

But from a distance and off the water it might not always be easy to distinguish shouting at another boat to intimidate them as a means of cheating (as case 47 describes) from shouting at another boat because they are in fact give way boat and don't seem aware of it, you having misjudged the overlap situation from a distance as is notoriously easy to do.

If you are really concerned you could always write to the club. That would be a report which would, I think, suffice for the club to hold an RRS69 hearing should they deem it necessary.
Nicely put Jim.

But what it boils down to is the club, relying on it's culture and the sanctions available to it against its members under its constitution, to deal with social aberration.  By all means use club rules (or if you think necessary local Sailing Instructions) to deal with bad manners, but don't expect the Racing Rules of Sailing to do it for you.

And it's not up to the 'club' to decide to hold a hearing for rule 69:  that decision rests with a protest committee, which, unlike a race committee cannot be directed and must be independent.

I also disagree that Case 47 is about intimidation:  it's about decepetion:  it contains very little facts or evidence about intimidation:  the asymmetry of experience is about the likelihood of being deceived, not vulnerability to intimidation.
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 15 at 6:22pm
For clubs that do have a problem with a ..."less than 100% pleasant"... sailor making their racing less enjoyable, but the politics means that it's difficult to deal with in house, it's worth giving the RYA a call.  There are a range of things they can do to help. 



Edited by Presuming Ed - 04 May 15 at 6:24pm
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 15 at 10:07pm
According to the RYA ' Bullying, intimidating or discriminatory behaviour against another competitor' is a level 3 (DSQ) to 5 (exclude from event and recommend further action) offence.

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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 15 at 7:03am
Port and starboard doesn't appear to come into this;I read it as a starboard boat entering the zone. Rights or no rights is hard to tell from the bank, but an experienced sailor not wanting to go right round a novice is pretty common. These days, shouting at beginners is far less common, I'd say, than it was decades ago, which is a good thing, mainly because they usually have no idea what is going on anyway. If the boat was being lapped, then certainly impolite. If rounding together in a racing situation, then clearly stating your rights as you see them is part of the game.

A protest against the guy for the actual situation ( if there is one) would be a good start. If that isn't happening, a rule 2 or 69 protest really isn't likely to be on the radar.
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You need to look at the wider situation (and have all the facts of course). 

But, were I to visit a club I was thinking of joining and witnessed a sailor shouting and appearing to bully people it would put me right off. I would probably ask to speak to the duty officer and make a comment about it.

We had an issue with someone like this at Hunts a few years ago. He really did some damage to our youth section before the committee took action (outside the RRS as no one would protest him).
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