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Room to clear a moving obstruction
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Room to clear a moving obstruction
    Posted: 14 May 14 at 12:11am
See updates to my previous post.

S gets mark-room the instant she passes head to wind, which is the same instant she loses right of way and the same instant the obligation to give room to pass under rule 19 ceases to apply between PW and PL, and is replaced by the obligation to give room to give mark-room (Case 114).

Which boat were you and what are the conclusions of the protest committee you want to appeal against?
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bowrat View Drop Down
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Posts: 3 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bowrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 14 at 8:22pm
Brilliant thanks, need to find that Appeal form now
Cheers, next time I'll ask before the Protest hearing!, thought I had it covered but this adds some assistance in explanation for PC doing the interpretations, Ta
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 14 at 2:18pm
Starting point as shown in diagram before S tacks, and supposing S is 1.5 hull lengths to downwind of the mark.

While S is changing course towards the wind up until she is head to wind, she remains on starboard tack and both PW and PL are required to keep clear of her (rule 10), PW is required to keep clear of PL (rule 11) but PL is required to give PW room to pass between her and S (rule 19.2( b )).

Once S passes head to wind
  • she is subject to rule 13, rules 10, 11 and 12 do not apply, and S is required to keep clear of both PW and PL;
  • all boats are now on the same tack, with at least S in the zone, so rule 18 applies:  rule 18.2( b ) does not apply so rule 18.2( a ) applies and S, the inside overlapped boat is entitled to mark-room from both PW and PL, so if S breaks rule 13 while taking mark-room to which she is entitled she shall be exonerated;
  • because PW and PL are no longer required to keep clear of S, S is no longer an obstruction (Definitions:  Obstruction), rule 19 ceases to apply, but the mark-room PL is now required to give includes room for PW to give mark-room to S (Case 114).
When S reaches her close hauled course on port, rule 13 ceases to apply and she will be to windward of PW and PL and required to keep clear of both of them (rule 11)  but still entitled to mark-room.




Edited by Brass - 14 May 14 at 2:25am
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Posts: 3 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bowrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 14 at 1:01pm
sorry forgot to repost your pic, the Finish mark is bottom of the little 'd' in wind, all boats to leave the mark to port
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Posts: 3 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bowrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 14 at 12:58pm
What if S now is required to tack?  
For instance if he now needed to tack to cross the finish line.  Which is approximately placed at the bottom of the 'd' in 'Wind' in your diagram?
Is W relieved of his obligation to keep clear once S has tacked?
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 14 at 10:04pm
Yes.

Actually, in the scenario diagrammed in Case 11, PL may NOT hail for room to tack, because she is already sailing a course to pass clear astern of S, and thus she can avoid the obstruction safely without making a substantial course change, so rule 20.1( a ) cuts off her entitlement.
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 14 at 2:31pm
Thanks Brass.

So L decides but if they decide to duck (or pass astern even if they do not need to change their course)  rather than tack they must also give room for W to pass astern.
Paul
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 9:30pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Brass

C'mon Paul, don't be lazy.

CASE 11
When boats are overlapped at an obstruction, including an obstruction that is a right-of-way boat, the outside boat must give the inside boat room to pass between her and the obstruction.

Rule 19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction
(a) A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on either side.

Sorry work is manic at the moment!

But that is exactly what I was thinking of so W can either call for room or tack away. 
Didn't mean to be snarky and apparently I was a bit cryptic <g>.

I think you are missing the point.

L, not W, is in control and has the choice which side of S to pass on.

L has the choice.

If she ducks behind S, she must also give W room in accordance with rule 19.2.

If she wishes to tack away, she may give a rule 20 hail and W must respond.

Nobody 'calls' for anything except a round of drinks afterwards.


Case 11 is the standard exposition of this situation and it's described in every commentary ever written.

CASE 11

Definition, Obstruction
Rule 14, Avoiding Contact
Rule 19.2(b), Room to Pass an Obstruction: Giving Room at an
Obstruction
Rule 20.1, Room to Tack at an Obstruction: Hailing
Rule 21(a), Exoneration

When boats are overlapped at an obstruction, including an
obstruction that is a right-of-way boat, the outside boat
must give the inside boat room to pass between her and the
obstruction.

Summary of the Facts





PW and PL, close-hauled on port tack and overlapped, approached S on
the windward leg. PL could pass safely astern of S. PW, on a collision
course with S, hailed PL for room to pass astern of S when PW and PL
were about three hull lengths from S. PL ignored the hail and maintained
her course. When PW bore away to avoid S, she and PL had slight beam72
to-beam contact with no damage or injury. PW protested under rule
19.2(b).

The protest committee held that rule 19.2(b) did not apply, stating that PW
could easily have tacked into the open water to windward to keep clear,
and should have done so. PW was disqualified under rule 11 and appealed.
Wind

Decision

S was an obstruction to PW and PL because both PW and PL would need
to change course substantially if they were sailing directly towards S and
were one hull length from her, and because they both were required by
rule 10 to keep clear of her (see the definition Obstruction). Under rule
19.2(a), PL, as the right-of-way boat, was entitled to pass S on either side.
She chose to pass to leeward of S. Therefore, under rule 19.2(b) PW was
entitled to room to pass between PL and the stern of S. PL did not give PW
that room, so PL broke rule 19.2(b). PL was subject to rule 14, but since
she held right of way over PW and there was no damage or injury, she is
exonerated for breaking that rule (see rule 14(b)).

PW could not have known that PL was not going to give sufficient room
until she was committed to pass between S and PL. PW broke rule 11, but
she did so while sailing within the room to which she was entitled by rule
19.2(b). Therefore, as required by rule 21(a), PW is exonerated for
breaking rule 11. Also, when it became clear that PL was not giving room,
it was not reasonably possible for PW to avoid the contact that occurred,
so PW did not break rule 14.

PW was not required to ‘tack into open water to windward to keep clear’
because PL did not hail under rule 20.1 for room to tack and avoid S. Had
PL hailed, PW would have been required by rules 20.2(b) and 20.2(c) to
respond even though rule 20.1(a) prohibited PL from hailing because she
did not have to make any change of course to avoid S.

PW’s appeal is upheld. The decision of the protest committee
disqualifying PW is reversed. PW is reinstated, and PL is disqualified for
breaking rule 19.2(b).



Edited by Brass - 06 Jan 14 at 9:32pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 2:57pm
I imagine Brass meant to paste in 19.2 (b) as well

(b) When boats are overlapped, the outside boat shall give the
inside boat room between her and the obstruction, unless she
has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.

I don't think there's no actual requirement for W to hail for the room, although it makes sense to do so.

So yeah, reckon the OP is correct.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by Brass

C'mon Paul, don't be lazy.

CASE 11
When boats are overlapped at an obstruction, including an obstruction that is a right-of-way boat, the outside boat must give the inside boat room to pass between her and the obstruction.

Rule 19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction
(a) A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on either side.

Sorry work is manic at the moment!

But that is exactly what I was thinking of so W can either call for room or tack away. 
Paul
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