Room to clear a moving obstruction
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11284
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 7:07am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Room to clear a moving obstruction
Posted By: SteveB00
Subject: Room to clear a moving obstruction
Date Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 11:15am
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I was in a race this evening and, on starboard tack and beating to a windward mark, two boats on port tack approached on our port side. The boats were overlapped and I'll call the leeward boat L and the windward boat W. There was some disagreement after the race about W's rights. My understanding of the situation is this: If she'd wanted to, L could have hailed W to tack to avoid us and W would have had to respond by either tacking or hailing "You tack!" back at L, and then allowing L room to tack. However, we were nearing the windward mark and neither port tack boat wanted to tack, and L came away just enough to pass behind us, but she didn't leave room for W to do the same,and W was forced to tack. I believe that, as a starboard tack boat, we were an obstruction to both L and W, and that, as L chose to pass to leeward of the obstruction, W could have hailed for room to pass to leeward also. Someone else believed that, as W had the option of tacking to avoid us, she _didn't_ have rights to hail L for room to pass astern of us. Who's right? Thanks, in advance, Steve = : ^ ) |
Replies:
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 12:07pm
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I believe W has the option to either tack or call for room to pass astern of you. I am sure Brass or Gordon will see this and give their usual excellent explanations though.
------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 12:29pm
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C'mon Paul, don't be lazy. CASE 11 When boats are overlapped at an obstruction, including an obstruction that is a right-of-way boat, the outside boat must give the inside boat room to pass between her and the obstruction. Rule 19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction (a) A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on either side.
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Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 1:34pm
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19.2a looks like a red herring to me. In this case, W is NOT the RoW boat, is she? Ignoring the obstruction, L holds RoW. Does this change due to the introduction of the obstruction? If so, at what point does W acquire RoW? 19.2b says what case 11 above says... ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 2:49pm
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Noah, I think the 2nd part of Brass's answer has to do with what would have happened if L had chosen to tack. But once the decision to bear away is made, then room must be made for both boats. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 2:50pm
Sorry work is manic at the moment! But that is exactly what I was thinking of so W can either call for room or tack away. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 2:57pm
I imagine Brass meant to paste in 19.2 (b) as well
I don't think there's no actual requirement for W to hail for the room, although it makes sense to do so. So yeah, reckon the OP is correct. |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 9:30pm
Didn't mean to be snarky and apparently I was a bit cryptic <g>. I think you are missing the point. L, not W, is in control and has the choice which side of S to pass on. L has the choice. If she ducks behind S, she must also give W room in accordance with rule 19.2. If she wishes to tack away, she may give a rule 20 hail and W must respond. Nobody 'calls' for anything except a round of drinks afterwards. Case 11 is the standard exposition of this situation and it's described in every commentary ever written. CASE 11 Definition, Obstruction Rule 14, Avoiding Contact Rule 19.2(b), Room to Pass an Obstruction: Giving Room at an Obstruction Rule 20.1, Room to Tack at an Obstruction: Hailing Rule 21(a), Exoneration When boats are overlapped at an obstruction, including an obstruction that is a right-of-way boat, the outside boat must give the inside boat room to pass between her and the obstruction. Summary of the Facts  PW and PL, close-hauled on port tack and overlapped, approached S on the windward leg. PL could pass safely astern of S. PW, on a collision course with S, hailed PL for room to pass astern of S when PW and PL were about three hull lengths from S. PL ignored the hail and maintained her course. When PW bore away to avoid S, she and PL had slight beam72 to-beam contact with no damage or injury. PW protested under rule 19.2(b). The protest committee held that rule 19.2(b) did not apply, stating that PW could easily have tacked into the open water to windward to keep clear, and should have done so. PW was disqualified under rule 11 and appealed. Wind Decision S was an obstruction to PW and PL because both PW and PL would need to change course substantially if they were sailing directly towards S and were one hull length from her, and because they both were required by rule 10 to keep clear of her (see the definition Obstruction). Under rule 19.2(a), PL, as the right-of-way boat, was entitled to pass S on either side. She chose to pass to leeward of S. Therefore, under rule 19.2(b) PW was entitled to room to pass between PL and the stern of S. PL did not give PW that room, so PL broke rule 19.2(b). PL was subject to rule 14, but since she held right of way over PW and there was no damage or injury, she is exonerated for breaking that rule (see rule 14(b)). PW could not have known that PL was not going to give sufficient room until she was committed to pass between S and PL. PW broke rule 11, but she did so while sailing within the room to which she was entitled by rule 19.2(b). Therefore, as required by rule 21(a), PW is exonerated for breaking rule 11. Also, when it became clear that PL was not giving room, it was not reasonably possible for PW to avoid the contact that occurred, so PW did not break rule 14. PW was not required to ‘tack into open water to windward to keep clear’ because PL did not hail under rule 20.1 for room to tack and avoid S. Had PL hailed, PW would have been required by rules 20.2(b) and 20.2(c) to respond even though rule 20.1(a) prohibited PL from hailing because she did not have to make any change of course to avoid S. PW’s appeal is upheld. The decision of the protest committee disqualifying PW is reversed. PW is reinstated, and PL is disqualified for breaking rule 19.2(b). |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 07 Jan 14 at 2:31pm
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Thanks Brass.
So L decides but if they decide to duck (or pass astern even if they do not need to change their course) rather than tack they must also give room for W to pass astern. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 07 Jan 14 at 10:04pm
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Yes.
Actually, in the scenario diagrammed in Case 11, PL may NOT hail for room to tack, because she is already sailing a course to pass clear astern of S, and thus she can avoid the obstruction safely without making a substantial course change, so rule 20.1( a ) cuts off her entitlement.
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Posted By: bowrat
Date Posted: 13 May 14 at 12:58pm
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What if S now is required to tack? For instance if he now needed to tack to cross the finish line. Which is approximately placed at the bottom of the 'd' in 'Wind' in your diagram? Is W relieved of his obligation to keep clear once S has tacked?
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Posted By: bowrat
Date Posted: 13 May 14 at 1:01pm
sorry forgot to repost your pic, the Finish mark is bottom of the little 'd' in wind, all boats to leave the mark to port
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 13 May 14 at 2:18pm
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Starting point as shown in diagram before S tacks, and supposing S is 1.5 hull lengths to downwind of the mark. While S is changing course towards the wind up until she is head to wind, she remains on starboard tack and both PW and PL are required to keep clear of her (rule 10), PW is required to keep clear of PL (rule 11) but PL is required to give PW room to pass between her and S (rule 19.2( b )). Once S passes head to wind
When S reaches her close hauled course on port, rule 13 ceases to apply and she will be to windward of PW and PL and required to keep clear of both of them (rule 11) but still entitled to mark-room. |
Posted By: bowrat
Date Posted: 13 May 14 at 8:22pm
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Brilliant thanks, need to find that Appeal form now Cheers, next time I'll ask before the Protest hearing!, thought I had it covered but this adds some assistance in explanation for PC doing the interpretations, Ta
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 14 May 14 at 12:11am
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See updates to my previous post. S gets mark-room the instant she passes head to wind, which is the same instant she loses right of way and the same instant the obligation to give room to pass under rule 19 ceases to apply between PW and PL, and is replaced by the obligation to give room to give mark-room (Case 114). Which boat were you and what are the conclusions of the protest committee you want to appeal against?
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