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Which takes precedence - 18 or 19?
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flaming View Drop Down
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Posts: 41 		Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Which takes precedence - 18 or 19?
    Posted: 13 Oct 13 at 8:22pm
Strange situation today.

Boats A and B are sailing downwind on Port tack approaching A mark that is to be left to starboard.  They are very definitely overlapped and have been for some minutes.  Boat A is to Windward.
Boat C is ahead but has had a very sloppy rounding of the mark and has elected to tack onto port tack, and will now pass less than 1/2 boatlength to windward of the mark.
All boats are 37-40 foot cruiser racers.

The timing is such that all three boats will arrive at the mark at once.  

Clearly A and B must keep clear of C under rule 11.
Clearly A owes B mark room at the mark.  

However, B shapes up to pass behind C, where there is just enough room for them to cross their stern and still leave the mark to starboard.
There is definitely not room for both A and B to pass behind C and both leave the mark to starboard.

Take the mark away, and 19.2b means that B has to give A room to pass the same side of the obstruction (C) as her.  
However, if A enforces this, then she is not able to give B the mark room that she definitely owes her under rule 18.2a.  

What happened was that Boat A (us) saw a massive accident in the making and bailed out to windward.  But thinking about it afterwards I couldn't work out who would have won a protest if we'd insisted on our rights under 19.  So which would win out, our rights under 19, or theirs under 18?
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 13 at 8:28pm
As far as I'm aware, water for an obstruction wins. It is certainly the case when on a narrow river, and one boat is calling for water on the mark, and another on the bank.
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 13 at 8:46pm
From the rules:

19.1 "Rule 19 applies between boats at an obstruction except when it is also a mark the boats are required to leave on the same side."

C is an obstruction so rule 19.1 applies between A and B.

B has ROW over A - she can therefore opt to pass astern of C and must give A room to do likewise.

Assuming that in passing astern B does not leave the zone A must then give B mark-room

It would seem to me that A did give mark-room by bailing out before-hand. Providing she bailed out in order to give B markroom, and not because B did not give her room to pass astern of C then no rule was broken.
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Posts: 41 		Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 13 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by gordon

From the rules:

19.1 "Rule 19 applies between boats at an obstruction except when it is also a mark the boats are required to leave on the same side."

C is an obstruction so rule 19.1 applies between A and B.

B has ROW over A - she can therefore opt to pass astern of C and must give A room to do likewise.

Assuming that in passing astern B does not leave the zone A must then give B mark-room

It would seem to me that A did give mark-room by bailing out before-hand. Providing she bailed out in order to give B markroom, and not because B did not give her room to pass astern of C then no rule was broken.

But if I'd insisted on my rights under 19, would the reverse be true if B bailed out the wrong side of the mark?  
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Why would "insisting on your rights" exonerate you from breaking the rule on mark room? If I understand this correctly it seems to me that you are looking for a conflict that isn't there. All boats have to obey all rules.
B must give A room to pass behind C, A must give B mark room. If, by choosing to pass behind C A fails to give mark room to B then A breaks the rule. Effectively A has no choice but to bale out.
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Posts: 41 		Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 13 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by JimC

Why would "insisting on your rights" exonerate you from breaking the rule on mark room? If I understand this correctly it seems to me that you are looking for a conflict that isn't there. All boats have to obey all rules.
B must give A room to pass behind C, A must give B mark room. If, by choosing to pass behind C A fails to give mark room to B then A breaks the rule. Effectively A has no choice but to bale out.

Interesting.  So you mean that just because I have the right to claim room under 19, it doesn't necessarily mean I should do?

But doesn't that cut the other way too?  After all, if he'd simply held his course to the mark and I'd bailed out and protested him,  (Which is what happened minus the protest - different classes) I don't see how he would win that protest.  As at that point he's broken 19.

So if I bail out and protest he gets flicked for 19, but if I take the room under 19 I will break 18.  Is that right?
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 13 at 10:14pm
I think to win a protest on R19 you would have to demonstrate that he didn't give you room when you needed it, and that would probably not be until it was too late to bail out. If he stands up in the room and says "we were ready to give him room, but sensibly he didn't take it" I think it would be hard to win a protest. If on the other hand he actually refuses to give room then I agree he's toast.

Edited by JimC - 13 Oct 13 at 10:18pm
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 13 at 10:21pm
Having rights does not mean you have to excercise them.

In this case if B gives room to A to pass astern of C, B has met her obligations under rule 19.

If A can pass astern of C AND give B mark room she may do so.

The only complicating factor is that the room B has to give under rule 19 includes room for A to meet her obligation to give mark room under rule 18 (see definition of room, which is part of the definition of mark room). If in order to give mark room A is called on to make an unseamanlike manoeuvre then B might be in trouble.

Baling out was probably the best option.
Gordon
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 13 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by flaming

Originally posted by gordon

From the rules:

19.1 "Rule 19 applies between boats at an obstruction except when it is also a mark the boats are required to leave on the same side."

C is an obstruction so rule 19.1 applies between A and B.

B has ROW over A - she can therefore opt to pass astern of C and must give A room to do likewise.

Assuming that in passing astern B does not leave the zone A must then give B mark-room

It would seem to me that A did give mark-room by bailing out before-hand. Providing she bailed out in order to give B markroom, and not because B did not give her room to pass astern of C then no rule was broken.
But if I'd insisted on my rights under 19, would the reverse be true if B bailed out the wrong side of the mark?  
 
If by 'insisted on my rights' you mean, after having luffed, you had protested B for breaking rule 19, provided you brought good evidence about time and space to show that B did not give room for you to pass between her and C, then you should expect B to be penalised.  As Gordon says, by luffing you certainly gave B the mark-room to which she was entitled.
 
If, on the other hand, B had given you room to pass astern of C and you had sailed within that room, then, as Gordon indicates in the bold paragraph above, rule 19 and 18 would apply one after the other.  Only after A had kept clear of or avoided contact with C would she be required to take action to give B the mark-room to which she was entitled by then luffing if necessary up to or past head to wind to allow B to sail back to windward of the mark and round it to starboard.
 
Gordon (tentatively):  how do you think this sits with the 'direct corridor' in Case 75?
 
If B had not given room and you had tried to foce in between B and C, with the consequent sounds of crunching fibreglass, then I'm still inclined to think that B had failed to give your rule 19 room, and probably, in addition broken rule 14 without exoneration.
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Posts: 41 		Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 11:34am
Originally posted by gordon



The only complicating factor is that the room B has to give under rule 19 includes room for A to meet her obligation to give mark room under rule 18 (see definition of room, which is part of the definition of mark room). If in order to give mark room A is called on to make an unseamanlike manoeuvre then B might be in trouble.


If we'd been given room to pass as close as I dared to C, then I'm pretty sure that B's bow would have passed the mark on the wrong side before my pivot point cleared C sufficiently for me to put the helm over.  


Baling out was probably the best option.


From where I was sat it was the only option!  It was just thinking through arguably the most intense mark rounding I've ever been involved in (there were about 6 other boats around as well who came into play when we finally cleared C and turned back to the mark) that I wondered if B had actually met their obligations.  
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