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Curtains for Assymetrics?
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Curtains for Assymetrics?
    Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 4:24pm
So those of us who thought the AC would be rubbish to watch are wrong, best to clear the air on that.  The racing has been excellent and no more or less processional than many races would be.  The power & speed have been phenomenal and efficiency is clearly the name of the game in their design parameters. And with the ultimate efficiency comes the loss of the kite.  

Coupled with Moths, ICs, C-Class & A-Class leading the way in the development sphere, and the growing resurgence of unarig singlehanders, are we seeing the slow death of the asymmetric kite?  There's certainly less being sailed at our club than there used to be, and I know I'm far less interested in them than I was when it comes to singlehander ownership, in fact kites on boats would be a bit of a turn off- as would week-in, week-out W/L racing.        

A quick look at the nationals stats shows a drop in the main singlehanded asymmetric classes- from this statistic one could view the market as contracting and consolidating- even the MPS, which anyone would say is a bloody good example of its ilk, seems to be dropping off a bit compared to its heyday in 2009/10/11.... down to sub 40 entries, compared to the International Moth which has had its all-time peak on the Y&Y record this year at nearly 70.  The 700 and 100 both dropped this year too... less than 40 boats at each.

When it comes to double-handers, symmetric kites are generally becoming simpler to use, where class rules allow it anyway.  And there is also the emergence of the Icon, which is one very nice ship; not withstanding the N12 which seems eminently well positioned to be the quality performance boat for lightweight couples, youngsters and parent child combos.  

So what else do people feel about asymmetric dinghies.... is this the beginning of the slide for them?  Or more just a case of a rebalance after all the heavy marketing of the last 25 years and finally the punters, certainly at club level, saying, 'that was nice, but we've had enough now...'
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 5:17pm
Don't the AC boats use code zeros when the wind is lighter? I assumed that is what the 'sprit was for?

Not that that answers the question...

Personally, I hope the craze is over, and people will start designing boats with sails that suit the hull speed again.
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 5:19pm
doubt it, probably more factors in it than just being an asymmetric that have led to the numbers shown.  if the technology does trickle down from the ac then spinnakers in all forms will cease to exists as will jibs, you just have to see how fast tnz went without theirs in the lv cup, plus we'll all have to be foiling for these extra efficient sail plans to work which also means wings.  for the average sailor i reckon itll be the self leveling foils (no more wands) thatll show up first in moths and beach cats like the phantom f18.
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gbr940 View Drop Down
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Posts: 198 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gbr940 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 10:58pm
Asymmetrics are here to stay
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by gbr940

Asymmetrics are here to stay


Asymmetrics as we know them pretty much come after wing masted cats.
C Class in the late 60's had wing rigs and no spinnakers.

I don't think the average amateur is able to cope with wing rings shore side?
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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 6:23am
can't see an outbreak of foiling cats with hydraulic wings happening in the lakes and resevoirs of the midlands anytime soon.... less "30 seconds to a gybe" from the tactitian at the back, more "OMG the banks coming up too fast, crash gybe now!"

.. that said, I've long been a fan of wings versus 'soft sails' and continue to believe they are the future of dinghy sailing... one day when the design and materials challenges have been solved.  This may be the point where asymetric sails go by the by on new designs, after all, you won't need them.

Until then, assy kites and foresails remain a very crew-friendly way, IMO, of increasing sail area for downwind legs.  Can't see their 'demise' any time soon, i.e. next 10 years.  They will get flatter, higher aspect and shrink in overall area though.




Edited by getafix - 17 Sep 13 at 6:28am
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 9:21am
Given that the top 2 classes in Nats terms have a sprit sail and a triangle with no battens, I can't see that wing masts, high aspect rigs or anything else will have much impact over the next decade.

Of course, 3rd place has a small asymmetric on it...
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 9:55am
I think where the high aspect, wing mast might have an impact is in the high performance development boats- I reckon these classes will become 'more mainstream' (again) with a drop off from SMODs, which seem to be the proponents of the 'asymmetric revolution' which seems to be playing out more as a fashionable fad, rather than a step change in dinghy racing development.  

Do I think the Int 14 or Cherub may lose their kites?  Maybe, down the line... but not for a while.  I do however think that those classes will attract more numbers of the remaining 'performance sailors', whereas SMOD equivalents will continue to dwindle.  This is the second annual fall for the RS800 on the Y&Y attendance table.  The 500 dropped this year a flat line the year before, whereas the Fireball appears to be growing after a flat line. The 49er fairs little better- especially considering it's got all the boost of the Olympic feeder programme and the 49erFX coming on-stream.  The 5000 and Boss are dead- have been for a while.  Compared to the Cherub which has a slow but steady growth, and is certainly shaking off its penny stocking and duct tape image at the sharp end of the fleet- this could be coupled with the N12, Int 14 as the performance, technical racer choice classes for double-handers.

I still see that as a consolidated market- losing ground to classics like the Merlin and Fireball, which seem to offer better racing- all though that's a totally subjective view, just one that seems to seemingly build some support.

I had always thought the smaller kites offered something- however a chat with one of our vareo sailors said the new radial cut wasn't much cop.... it didn't hold a significantly tighter reach (in comparison to our 200s) and that it just lacked power and ability to soak on the deeper runs.  The bottom line, it left me questioning the point of an asymmetric on anything without the power to weight ratio offer proper apparent wind sailing.





 


Edited by yellowwelly - 17 Sep 13 at 10:01am
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Dougal View Drop Down
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Posts: 556 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 10:20am
I think asymmetric kites are here to stay - however I suspect their use will become more specialised. By this I mean there is no place (in my opinion) for a boat like the 14/RS800/49er etc in round the cans racing as they cannot hold the kite on many of the reaches. However I do see Laser 2000's (or whatever it is called these days) and RS 200's competing very successfully round the cans because they have smaller kites and can hold them effectively on tighter reaches.

Personally, I am a great fan of the symmetric spinnaker for the majority of club racing in the UK and continue to be surprised that one of the smaller symmetric classes hasn't had a resurgence (no doubt one will have and I have missed it so apologies...). The Fireball seems to go from strength to strength and covers the 'faster' end of the spectrum - there surely must be an opportunity for a slower boat to do the same. Miracle? Scorpion? Graduate? Stick a kite on an Enterprise?

As always it is horses for courses. I am not knocking w/l big fast asymmetric racing (I did the L5000 circuit many years ago and loved it), but to me there appears to be a gap for a double handed hiking symmetric spinnaker class that sits handicap wise around 1050-1150 (ish).
What could possibly go wrong?
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Posts: 392 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 10:35am
I think that Fireball is popular partly because it is such an easy class to get into. Fireball prices start from PTA (please take it away) to new. Although a new Winder is a different beast to a kitchen table job it looks the same. Keep the symmetric, why change? Is there a better boat for sea or pond?
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