Curtains for Assymetrics?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11084
Printed Date: 15 Jul 25 at 4:23am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Curtains for Assymetrics?
Posted By: yellowwelly
Subject: Curtains for Assymetrics?
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 4:24pm
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So those of us who thought the AC would be rubbish to watch are wrong, best to clear the air on that. The racing has been excellent and no more or less processional than many races would be. The power & speed have been phenomenal and efficiency is clearly the name of the game in their design parameters. And with the ultimate efficiency comes the loss of the kite. Coupled with Moths, ICs, C-Class & A-Class leading the way in the development sphere, and the growing resurgence of unarig singlehanders, are we seeing the slow death of the asymmetric kite? There's certainly less being sailed at our club than there used to be, and I know I'm far less interested in them than I was when it comes to singlehander ownership, in fact kites on boats would be a bit of a turn off- as would week-in, week-out W/L racing. A quick look at the nationals stats shows a drop in the main singlehanded asymmetric classes- from this statistic one could view the market as contracting and consolidating- even the MPS, which anyone would say is a bloody good example of its ilk, seems to be dropping off a bit compared to its heyday in 2009/10/11.... down to sub 40 entries, compared to the International Moth which has had its all-time peak on the Y&Y record this year at nearly 70. The 700 and 100 both dropped this year too... less than 40 boats at each. When it comes to double-handers, symmetric kites are generally becoming simpler to use, where class rules allow it anyway. And there is also the emergence of the Icon, which is one very nice ship; not withstanding the N12 which seems eminently well positioned to be the quality performance boat for lightweight couples, youngsters and parent child combos. So what else do people feel about asymmetric dinghies.... is this the beginning of the slide for them? Or more just a case of a rebalance after all the heavy marketing of the last 25 years and finally the punters, certainly at club level, saying, 'that was nice, but we've had enough now...'
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Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 5:17pm
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Don't the AC boats use code zeros when the wind is lighter? I assumed that is what the 'sprit was for? Not that that answers the question... Personally, I hope the craze is over, and people will start designing boats with sails that suit the hull speed again. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 5:19pm
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doubt it, probably more factors in it than just being an asymmetric that have led to the numbers shown. if the technology does trickle down from the ac then spinnakers in all forms will cease to exists as will jibs, you just have to see how fast tnz went without theirs in the lv cup, plus we'll all have to be foiling for these extra efficient sail plans to work which also means wings. for the average sailor i reckon itll be the self leveling foils (no more wands) thatll show up first in moths and beach cats like the phantom f18. ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 10:58pm
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Asymmetrics are here to stay ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 11:52pm
Asymmetrics as we know them pretty much come after wing masted cats. C Class in the late 60's had wing rigs and no spinnakers. I don't think the average amateur is able to cope with wing rings shore side? |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 6:23am
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can't see an outbreak of foiling cats with hydraulic wings happening in the lakes and resevoirs of the midlands anytime soon.... less "30 seconds to a gybe" from the tactitian at the back, more "OMG the banks coming up too fast, crash gybe now!" .. that said, I've long been a fan of wings versus 'soft sails' and continue to believe they are the future of dinghy sailing... one day when the design and materials challenges have been solved. This may be the point where asymetric sails go by the by on new designs, after all, you won't need them. Until then, assy kites and foresails remain a very crew-friendly way, IMO, of increasing sail area for downwind legs. Can't see their 'demise' any time soon, i.e. next 10 years. They will get flatter, higher aspect and shrink in overall area though. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 9:21am
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Given that the top 2 classes in Nats terms have a sprit sail and a triangle with no battens, I can't see that wing masts, high aspect rigs or anything else will have much impact over the next decade. Of course, 3rd place has a small asymmetric on it... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 9:55am
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I think where the high aspect, wing mast might have an impact is in the high performance development boats- I reckon these classes will become 'more mainstream' (again) with a drop off from SMODs, which seem to be the proponents of the 'asymmetric revolution' which seems to be playing out more as a fashionable fad, rather than a step change in dinghy racing development. Do I think the Int 14 or Cherub may lose their kites? Maybe, down the line... but not for a while. I do however think that those classes will attract more numbers of the remaining 'performance sailors', whereas SMOD equivalents will continue to dwindle. This is the second annual fall for the RS800 on the Y&Y attendance table. The 500 dropped this year a flat line the year before, whereas the Fireball appears to be growing after a flat line. The 49er fairs little better- especially considering it's got all the boost of the Olympic feeder programme and the 49erFX coming on-stream. The 5000 and Boss are dead- have been for a while. Compared to the Cherub which has a slow but steady growth, and is certainly shaking off its penny stocking and duct tape image at the sharp end of the fleet- this could be coupled with the N12, Int 14 as the performance, technical racer choice classes for double-handers. I still see that as a consolidated market- losing ground to classics like the Merlin and Fireball, which seem to offer better racing- all though that's a totally subjective view, just one that seems to seemingly build some support. I had always thought the smaller kites offered something- however a chat with one of our vareo sailors said the new radial cut wasn't much cop.... it didn't hold a significantly tighter reach (in comparison to our 200s) and that it just lacked power and ability to soak on the deeper runs. The bottom line, it left me questioning the point of an asymmetric on anything without the power to weight ratio offer proper apparent wind sailing. |
Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 10:20am
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I think asymmetric kites are here to stay - however I suspect their use will become more specialised. By this I mean there is no place (in my opinion) for a boat like the 14/RS800/49er etc in round the cans racing as they cannot hold the kite on many of the reaches. However I do see Laser 2000's (or whatever it is called these days) and RS 200's competing very successfully round the cans because they have smaller kites and can hold them effectively on tighter reaches.
Personally, I am a great fan of the symmetric spinnaker for the majority of club racing in the UK and continue to be surprised that one of the smaller symmetric classes hasn't had a resurgence (no doubt one will have and I have missed it so apologies...). The Fireball seems to go from strength to strength and covers the 'faster' end of the spectrum - there surely must be an opportunity for a slower boat to do the same. Miracle? Scorpion? Graduate? Stick a kite on an Enterprise? As always it is horses for courses. I am not knocking w/l big fast asymmetric racing (I did the L5000 circuit many years ago and loved it), but to me there appears to be a gap for a double handed hiking symmetric spinnaker class that sits handicap wise around 1050-1150 (ish). ------------- What could possibly go wrong? |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 10:35am
| I think that Fireball is popular partly because it is such an easy class to get into. Fireball prices start from PTA (please take it away) to new. Although a new Winder is a different beast to a kitchen table job it looks the same. Keep the symmetric, why change? Is there a better boat for sea or pond? |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 10:55am
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The SMOD you are not mentioning is the 29er. That seems to be doing the business, training up the youths, seems to be steady in popularity. Will those people defect to the GP14? I think not.
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Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 11:16am
I absolutely agree. ------------- What could possibly go wrong? |
Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 11:33am
I guess this fits into the 'horses for courses' category. I know very little about the 29er, but my impression is that it is a fast boat for teenagers that feeds into the 49er. It therefore has its place. It would be interesting to suggest the GP as a youth training boat though  . Any takers?
------------- What could possibly go wrong? |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 12:04pm
I suspect not all the people who grow out of 29ers will want to sail 49ers. If they want a boat to sail as a couple in their 20's, they may look at the RS800? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 12:22pm
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Never having sailed a symmetric kite, nor ever wanting to because they are old fashioned, I had always hoped the assym would continue to develop, more innovative ways of making it do the dead downwind in light conditions thing.
What goes on with AC, foilers etc is about as relevant to what we do as F1 is to the cars we drive. So, no I don't think it's curtains entirely but yes demand has slowed, but that's more due to the inadequacies of the current designs, which has permitted the coffin dodgers aided by a half baked industry preying on the status quo or the worse character traits of the banditerati one last hurrah in the promotion of those old should be dead and buried classes. And I could still point to successful growing classes, albeit slowly but the D1, has taken up where maybe the MPS has slowed as did the RS100, so there is demand which the day a well priced more easily sailed kited single hander shows up, will inevitably demonstrate. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 12:37pm
Yes agreed. I think the point I am getting at it that there is definitely a place for asymmetrics but there has been a tendency to shoehorn them into an environment where they are not suited at the expense of boats that are. i.e. round the cans racing. As some of the other posts here have mentioned this is a trend that is now perhaps reversing. ------------- What could possibly go wrong? |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 12:46pm
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For my mind it’s still a little too early to say. Most if not all assy dinghies in recent years (excluding the development classes) have been launched by large builder with big targets and bank managers to satisfy, so in order for the business model to work they need to sell allot of boats into a market very quickly. Regardless if it’s the right boat to sell into the market place or to the specific customer. Therefore you see and instant result in terms of nationals attendance. Assy boats by their very nature are pretty powerful over canvassed craft that require time, fitness and commitment to achieve most sailors long time goals (to win) time which many people don’t have, this coupled with the classes need to really be sailed on less restricted water means that nationals attendances will drop off for a few years whilst a proper used boat market and demand is created. Just look at the Musto as a case in point. Traditional classes offer people an easy route into sailing, you can pick up pretty much all of them in a cheaper form, they are jacks of all trades master of none, they all tend to perform well in handicap racing, they have established tuning guides and sail makers. They have proper infrastructure from the class associations. So actually they offer better instant value for the modern sailor. To my mind its nothing to do with the kite itself, more to do with the other sh*t that’s needed to make a class a success. I’m not saying that the UK D1 fleet business model is the right way (its certainly very far away from perfect), but the ethos is clear. Organic growth, proper class run association, support from supplier. Being open and talking to the sailors about rule sets. in fact very little about how we do things is commercial led. It’s to provide a strong footing for long term growth. Now I am not sure that we will ever trouble the Laser or Solo for the National attendances table. But for me there is a market for Assy boats, I am just not sure that really the dinghy industry really understands its customer base fully... ------------- |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 12:51pm
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One thing I think is important to point out is the lack of understanding by sailing clubs and sailors as to W/L racing. I hear so often that its boring and that there is no tactical element involved. This is simply not true. If anything it offers more tactical challenges than RTC courses. if we use a Solo as an example. There are no tactical options on a reach. Pretty much all the boats travel at the same speed between the marks. The positions change when on a downwind leg or a beat, so in essence where is the difference in race tack ticks. Has anyone ever Won an event because they were tactically superior on a reaching leg??? ------------- |
Posted By: BVS
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 12:55pm
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I can't make up my mind about Assys. I enjoy the tactical side of getting down a leeward leg as efficiently as possible (gybing on the lifts, judging laylines etc) but IMO they don't seem to boost performance much in the slower boats.
I don't know how the PN of a Vario compares with a Laser, but on a leeward leg I find I can usually keep pace with a Vario without too much effort (him doing the angles, me going direct to the mark).
Personally I think Assys only have a place on high performance boats.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 1:34pm
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But the reaching is the fun bit! straight line speed - and yes, tactical, because you need toposition yourself correctly - up on the plane, enjoying yourself. Yes, the leeward leg is tactical. In a slow assy the main tactic is trying to soak low without losing too much speed, as you know that all the guys who blast off in a cloud of spray will have to sail far too far to actually get to the bottom mark before the boring soakers. Yawn. Yes, in an 800, or a 29er, or whatever, the speed will be there to do it in fairly light winds, but in the heavy family boats, it has to be blowing half a gale before it becomes quicker to point up than soak low, and even then goosewinging wouldn't lose you much, if anything. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 1:36pm
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Asymmetric kite on slow boats is not so good. I find it amusing sailing a run on starboard by the lee in a Pico at almost the same angle as a Feva on port gybe - it tends to confuse them when you call starboard! (when they are expecting you to be windward boat ) When they gybe onto starboard, they are sailing at nearly 90 degrees to my course.  ------------- " rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk Andy P foiling Int Moth GBR3467 Freedom 21 Codling |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 1:49pm
I think therein lies the truth, a huge part of the problem is people misread the conditions and blast off at too high an angle. I know I am guilty of sailing too hot sometimes. As for the tactical options on a reach. They are fairly basic, at most class opens I have done in boats like the Solo they offer very little in terms of passing opportunity. Handicap racing, yes. It’s a chance for a Phantom to really open the taps up, but really it’s nothing to the tactical options offered by and assy on a W//L course. Going low or high, spotting the shifts, spotting your opponents, having an idea what the tide is doing, nailing the layline and mark rounding. Not to mention quick hoists and drops. IMNSHO it’s just a lack of general understanding which seems endemic in the dinghy sailing world. People don’t understand W/L racing, they don’t understand when to sail high or low. it’s all about time in the boat, but I don’t see many decent training videos or proper coaching tips to help people learn faster. its only since I have taken cycling up more recently that I have realised how behind the times the dinghy world is. Albeit a much, much, much smaller sport. ------------- |
Posted By: AlanH
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 1:58pm
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Agree, assy kites on slow boats, very bad idea. Assies on medium boats, not very good idea. Assies on fast boats, yes that's the only place they should be, but an assy alone doesnt make an exciting boat. For those who want speed, in future a people's foiler would generally be a better alternative, giving a bigger speed boost. I'd rather spend time learning to sail a Moth than a Musto Skiff. The MS is a very good skiff but needs lot of time.
However not many people sail very fast boats, so we shouldn't obsess too much about them. For mass market boats, quality of racing is more important than speed. This forum mostly considers the helm/ owner's perspective. However if crewing, then either a symmetrical spi, or a jib with dangly pole, gives far more challenge/ interest than an assy does. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 2:32pm
Firstly I suspect you need to spend some more time watching Solos racing. I tend to end up stuck on the bank at our opens doing photos and results, so I've had to do that. They do vary in reaching speed appreciably, and it can have a big effect on the results. The fast reaching boat that opens up a gap behind and closes up the gap ahead is clear to attack and concentrate on overtaking the next bunch, or just slap a loose cover over the pack behind, whilst the slow reaching boat with a pack snapping at their heels has no choice put to sail defensively and is very vulnerable to a split: its quite striking. Personally I got fed up with W/Ls after a couple of seasons. Its just a vmg contest all the time. The sport can be more than that. In high performance boats legs that are higher than the optimum kite speed offer enormous opportunities to the canny sailor who makes best use of gusts, lulls, when to hoist, when to drop, all the rest of it. And as a forward hand when I sail two handers, whilst its entertaining to go back to a pole kite from time to time for the odd race, I couldn't cope with using one all the time. Too tedious, and I mentally can't cope with the inefficiency of the silly short poles. |
Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 2:45pm
Couldn't disagree more stongly. Another boat you're forgetting is the B14...we have hovered the same number of entries at Nationals for quite some time and have a great group of people. The boat hasn't changed much since the 90's, albeit builder spec and slow introduction of Carbon upgrades and sail development, but all in a cost effective way. I've definitely seen a bigger mix of gender sailing an MPS over iMoths and i'm pretty sure that there are more MPS sailors then Moths at Nationals and even open meetings. As for tactical calls - nah they are both the same, if you're not pushing yourself on a run physically in either boat then the boat isn't performing at it's best tactically. A well executed high-speed gybe is awesome to watch, same as watching a Merlin ballet dancing through it's gybe. As Dougal quite rightly said - it's horses for courses, at our club we are seeing a growing B14 fleet and Lark fleet along with newly developing iMoth fleet. Variation is what makes the UK dinghy scene so unique and great! ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 2:57pm
How about the number of years i actually raced them Jim, will that do you? I suspect i have more experience of them than you watching your club open each year. ------------- |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 5:25pm
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I have to agree with Jim- give a Solo on a bit of space and those reaching legs become crucial- the weight of the helmsman plays out, but also the skill of soaking in the lulls and catching the gusts- all in collaboration with which lane to take at the mark. There are a couple of bigger guys who don't seem to suffer as badly as me in the reaches- they say they have to work far hard and sail much smarter on these legs.... experience will help me in the longer term, in the short term getting under 95kg is the goal for this winter- aim to be 90 ish for next year's wednesday nights.
Either way, it's certainly more 'tactical' than who can hike the hardest and fight the inability of a hiking asymmetric to generate the righting moment really necessary to get proper apparent wind sailing going (B14 graciously excluded).
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Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 5:34pm
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In your opinion James. ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 5:47pm
| Ruscoe, racing ain't watching. Sometimes the outsider sees more of the big picture. I was surprised the first time because it was so contra received opinion, but it was striking just how much reaching speed affected the tactical options on the next beat. Much more so than a run, where there's a tendency to just get bunched up by the gusts. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 6:08pm
| Jim I know you've said it often enough, but dead running isn't fast- especially in the SoSlow- it would be interesting to see the polars, real time experience shows the good guys seemingly all over the place downwind- I can only imagine the tactical options in a boat that would also facilitate proper by the lee sailing- our laser fleet battles (at the front) are settled downwind. |
Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 6:22pm
Eric Twiname in Start to Win strongly advocated watching races to improve your own sailing. You're in good company Jim! ------------- What could possibly go wrong? |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 6:33pm
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In your opinion Eric
[ There you go Russy ;-) ] |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 7:17pm
Before we get carried away with this I thought I'd just compare the 2013 Moth Nationals (70boats) with the Musto Skiff Nationals (40 boats) and a quick scan of the results saw no ladies competing at the latter, and 4 at the Moths... Maybe the MPS open circuit is stronger, but I ran out of interest at that point! Coming from a traditional class background I find the downwinds are far more tactically interesting in the Moth and you're presented with far more options than the traditional procession style that the slower boats lend themselves to. It's easier to chase puffs and shifts around the course and get away from other boats ------------- http://www.aardvarkracing.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Home of Rocket Racing |
Posted By: Cameron Winton
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 8:15pm
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I don't think curtains make good spinnakers, too heavy cloth
I'll get me coat............ |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 8:39pm
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Most British sailing clubs sail on water which is just too small to make decent W/L racing a viable option, and many of the better assymetric boats are largely too fast for the average puddle club. As for gender, there are bound to be more female sailors sailing moths than mustos: the moth requires you to be light and nimble and so suits the female frame, the musto I'm sure can be well sailed on technique, but size and strenght will always favour the men and deter the women. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 8:40pm
drapes would probably be better ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 9:07pm
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I've owned spinnakers that looked like net curtains.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 7:59am
Thank you Nessa. Please see my post "Annalise Murphy".
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 8:37am
Not at Hunts they are not. we have some great battles upwind and on the reaches (positioning the boat). All legs of the course can be tactical and you can find you get away on any leg or gain back on any leg. On a reach if you are behind it can sometimes pay to go low and come in at a hotter angle whilst the pack in front push each other higher and higher trying to defend their wind. The other weekend 1st and 2nd was decided by a matter of half a boat length or so after an hours hard racing. The person who won made the right tactical decision on the final offwind leg and pushed the boat in second round the outside allowing them to be ahead for the short leg to the finish. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 10:02am
| Hunts is a good example of a sailing club with a future- it's growing! Paul do you see more or less asymmetric dinghies there now? |
Posted By: bernie
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 10:37am
Always been the case. However it was picked-up by the mainstream builders because 1) it was easier to use, and 2) it was fashionable. Once the fashion fad ran its course, people were going to start noticing that pole kites were a better solution for all but a few classes. WRT the development class scene, I think we're going to see a split in the next 5-10 years, with some going the wing/foiling route, and others going the horsepower route with bigger rigs and powerful kites. ------------- Never sheet out. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 10:47am
Loaded question really, the growth if any I would venture to suggest is probably in single handers generally and currently there are no easily accessible single hander by either price or ease of use on the market. If that situation were to change as it may yet with the Echo or whatever the kited Blaze cut down Icon is for example then the act of using them might increase I tend to the view that foils are going to continue to grow, hell after watching that AC I'm thinking of jacking the V2 hull up on foils how mad would that be.. I need to see how they do their self levelling thing at times they seem to be up on the one foil, I feel a new thread coming on... ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 10:57am
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foilers will have the same issue as fast assymetircs - most club waters are too small for the speed! At the moment Hunts has a couple of 3000s racing, quite a few vagos (we bought two with our Sport England grant last year) plus an RS200. I think a couple of buzzes will be venturing out soon too. There were some 2000s racing when I joined a few years back but we don't see them racing now. There is an rS400 at the club but really the water is too small. Otherwise mostly we see a lot of single handers plus a couple of fireballs, some Ents, a Merlin, an occasional 470. I will be racing my contender at Grafham this winter, until I get the D1 which will either go to Grafham which does good assy racing, or Oxford with the other guys. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 10:58am
 let's hope the Lord doesn't find your thread.... that would be one rather hilarious bit of sailing forum history in the making. Lord vs Fuller(on your other points you are quite right... too expensive, too limited, too unnecessary. The fad is over.)
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 11:31am
Yes I can see that now, thanks to my lake adventures which hopefully should continue this very afternoon. However I still think something like the Icon with a kite option would be an answer, it's just smal enough to be used on the lake, maybe even with a kite if it could be deployed and recovered quickly = small, then with a larger option for the sea. I can't understand why builders don't make their boats more 'convertible' and thus more versatile. I guess it's the necessity to class convention getting in the way as usual.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 12:44pm
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that X1 riverboat that is going to the FOM would be ideal for our lake. I am off there to sail the contender for a little while this afternoon, but will probably get fed up as usual. Not enough space. An Icon would also be great at Hunts. One of our regualrs has just bought an old Tasar. An Icon would be the more modern choice and should also replace the ents still chugging round. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 12:52pm
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I'm another one off the their lake this afternoon too. I'll be windsurfing probably given the abundance of breeze today, although the retired guys will be out in the Solos if I fancy a dinghy dash instead... I'm not sure Spartan wetsuits are really good for dinghy sailing though and those truly awesome hikers from Sandiline are hanging in the garage, not in my kit bag. we need a HWIFY forum as this has no bearing on asymmetric dinghies. But if I were guessing, there'll be none out today or this evening- despite the fresh breeze that actually sits in their narrow wind range of fun sailing. I think I'd rather have a cat than an asymmetric.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 12:57pm
As Nessa has said we have a 200 that is sailed by a husband and wife team (used to do very well in the Miracle fleet before the got the 200). We also have a couple of youth team who have some old Laser 3000s (that go very well in a breeze). An RS400 that is more of a liability when it is out. The odd 2000. A couple of Vagos (not including the club owned Vagos) And at least 1 Buzz (but that has not races as yet). Symmetric wise we have the nucleus of a fleet. We have one very fast boat (usually near the front are Fireball Opens) another where the couple who sail are getting back in to it after having kids. Another that is sailed come hell or high water (and that likes to eat Solos) and another couple who are either about to buy or who has just bought one. We also have a Wanderer, a 470 the odd GP14 and a Mirror or 2. No real decline, in fact growth in both types of kite. My preference is for Symmetric though, but then again I am biased! ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 1:05pm
You can say that again, funny I was ordering wetsuits from the Oneil rep yesterday and they don't do surface sport suits really nor any dinghy specific, the rep actually suggested Neil Pryde or Gul, seemed to think there were some re-enforced butt suits, I've trashed every suit I own with this sitting down nonsense.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 1:17pm
because you can't be arsed to moved fast enough to stop it falling over I like Musto, i loved my 600 before, in that i like tactics being played out at high speed upwind so why wouldn't i want to do that downwind. Just because some of the poorly executed boats have finally slipped into the nettles its hardly curtains. I am sure we could find even more old school boats that have done the same. Not all of us sail in small gravel pits, I think if you go to those clubs that have space you'll find asymmetrical rigged boats doing very nicely indeed. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 1:28pm
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au contraire... I couldn't be arsed to move fast enough upwind off a rack in lull / shift. Same with the 600. Nothing to do with Asymmetrics. But this thread isn't about my appalling trapezing skills ;-) I do agree with you though, where there is enough space there are asymmetric dinghies with enough power to make it work... but then there is also the Moth, and that is eating up high performance sailors from the diminishing pool. It's offering better performance, and some argue, more tactical racing. I wonder how long the MPS, great though it is, will continue to play second fiddle to the Moth, or another SMOD capitalising on efficiency rather than power as exemplified by the current crop of asymmetric singlehanders? Hopefully the old girl's got some life in her yet, but I'm beginning to think there was a good reason why its entire conception was still-born and we've never had the reality of the 'Olympic Skiff Project' materialise at the top of the game. http://www.mustoskiff.com/downloads/voiles_et_voilers.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.mustoskiff.com/downloads/voiles_et_voilers.pdf
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Posted By: ajbaldwin
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 3:12pm
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I think the size of your puddle makes a big difference at Yorkshire Dales SC where we have enough space for fast asymmetric boats we have plenty that race. If you take the Lasers out of the equation then the vast majority of boats that you see out are asymmetric and I think the numbers are growing. ------------- Yorkshire Dales SC Vareo 505 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 3:38pm
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Apart from Merlins, the vast majority of new 2 handers I've seen this year are Asy's. Fair number of Rs100 and D-one as well. I don't think foils will catch on in a big way any time soon, in the same way that cats took ages to become mainstream, and boards have gone back to being a niche or a separate sport rather than a 'threat to dinghies'. Having said that, I suspect an accessible foiler would have a market, perhaps for long distance races? Nab Tower, EC Piers, Texel etc? I think it will mostly be cats.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 4:06pm
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Foils and cats make sense to me - fast take off speed, stable platform, sails already designed for high speeds - whats not to like?
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 26 Sep 13 at 10:50am
I think the "emergence of the Icon" is only significant on this forum, how many boats are there sailing world wide??? It looks a nice boat but I don't think it has made much impact on the sport ... yet ... As for assy kites ... well I believe they have been around for 100s of years and will probably continue to do so ... There were many classes that jumped on the assy bandwagon that were duds and those are now in decline or dead ... ISO, Boss, 4000, 5000, 700 but others are still going well. The nationals attendance table is a very raw metric; especially for international classes or classes that have a road trip to Garda/Como in that year. If you have a boat that is very fast like a Moth or an A class then they don't need kites but for moderately fast planing boats a kite will always improve performance and provide entertainment.
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Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 26 Sep 13 at 2:56pm
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I think the "emergence of the Icon" is only significant on this forum, how many boats are there sailing world wide???
Got to agree with you as numbers are still only in the high teens !! (However we now have Icons in Germany, Ireland, Netherlands and soon apparently in Spain) but we have a very long way to go as you imply ! Still at the seeding stage ... BUT in the spirit of this forum I cannot in turn resist enquiring just how many Laserists from 10 or 20 years ago are still joined at the hip to the old 'knee wrecker' ? Looks like just a few yoofs and the last of the baby boomers left there these days ! ... Allright calm down I'm only teasing ! Mike L. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 26 Sep 13 at 4:16pm
I think there are more 'laserists from 10 or 20 years ago' sailing lasers in our muddy creek than Icons in the whole of England. Although they are slowly defecting to Solos. There is something in what you say, people between 25 and 45, having realised they are not World Class Laser Sailors, generally want to try some of the dozens of other options, 2 handers, kites, trapezes or whatever. People who wind down their dinghy sailing having 'been there, done that' often seem to 'just get a laser for a bit of club sailing'. Even if they also have a RIB or a yacht to use with their family. Or they sail their kid's laser when the wife refuses to crew for them.....
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Posted By: kurio99
Date Posted: 30 Sep 13 at 9:26am
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I for one, love my kite. My boat is similar to the RS100. Without the kite, the boat is as boring as ditch water. The polars are really extreme. In around 135 degrees, the boat takes off. Around the cans, the boat is crud since my VMG is not good enough to match the slow plodder going straight downwind. I'm always dead last in any mixed race. Even so, there were a couple of races in light wind where I was hanging way off the side trying to hold her flat as she was planing. I have the only asym in the club, so I get more than a few surprised comments from members seeing me flying on those types of days. Given the choice, I'd rather be dead last and fast, versus first and plodding. |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 30 Sep 13 at 9:41am
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what is the boat? pictures?
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 30 Sep 13 at 9:50am
given location, I'm guessing CL Stealth.... It's more 'laser like' than the D1 and RS100 from layman appearance, definitely wouldn't have the righting moment needed to make it work 'properly' (1.72m) and as I understand it, could well be out of production these days despite the website still being live. More here: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=123604" rel="nofollow - http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=123604
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Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 30 Sep 13 at 11:50am
700's having an excellent year thanks. RS had to find some additional build slots to fulfil the orders. Cheers Ian |
Posted By: overturned
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 9:07am
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Go get Ospreys,
We sail ours vaguely competitively, and we have a fairly small lake! I'm 3-4 stone too light as a crew, but we can still keep up with the better ospreys upwind, and just about on reaches!!! But in the downwind, we are a bit faster in some conditions!!! And because they have a large freeboard, you don't go through every wave, and get soaked!!! |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 3:34pm
| There's a very nice Osprey just come onto the Facbook dinghies group- it does look a nice boat, almost like a slightly more sedate 505... I can see the appeal |
Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 4:07pm
And you can race it 3 up if so desired... which suited me when the kids were younger. (You can also fit 6 hulking youth oiks with back packs in, but you don't half have to sail it flat .....)
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Posted By: AlanH
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 4:53pm
| A fine boat. Might feel slightly more sedate (=stable) than a 505 but don't underestimate its speed, can beat a 505 on the water. Smaller spi is far better for round the cans. Far greater value for money, far less complications, and does not need regular buying of latest inventions. You sail it, rather than drain your bank account. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 4:56pm
a feeling shared with my Solo- I think it's the first boat I haven't needed to spend anything on keeping it on the water! Nice waterline length on those Ospreys - does it go well to handicap, or is it a bit binary and needs a perfect 13 knots and 18ºC?
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Posted By: AlanH
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 5:02pm
| Only had the Osprey this year, haven't discovered any handicap hot/ weak spots yet. Seems to go well all the time. Its certainly not schizoid in Contender/ 420 fashion, seems to be an all rounder. Also equally good on sea and inland, and carries weight very well. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 5:16pm
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I'm sold... (just not on the idea I'd find the time for a double hander any time soon)
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Posted By: AlanH
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 6:29pm
| It would also be good for taking out kids, if that helps you create time. Many have furling jibs, so you reduce sail easily, but still have a fast boat. Its heavy enough to be stable, unlike most 90s onwards designs, but is v fast for its weight. I think its probably the long LWL as you say. £5.5k is a bargain for a Hartley, or you could buy an older wooden one for about £1-2k. The seller is a fellow Solo sailor, no doubt you'd get on! |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 6:48pm
| Maybe one day Alan, but for the time being sailing with the kids is a sunshine only activity in warm waters... in the UK they prefer to be around horses. I can't blame them... where we live is set up more for country pursuits than racing sailboats! |
Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 10 Oct 13 at 6:00pm
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[TUBE]nLk22YJAzHY&feature=youtu.be[/TUBE] |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 11 Oct 13 at 6:51am
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could you imagine a 65ftr with a bowsprit of similar proportion to hull length as most dinghy ones are? Also, GRF would approve of the sprits on the Class 40s... ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 11 Oct 13 at 8:03am
There was a boat called Essex Girl - owned by Richard Matthews at the time I think - that used to race on the East Coast in the mid/late 90's that wasn't far off that, although I'm pretty sure it would have been nearer 40ft than 65ft. I tried Google to find a picture. Sticking 'essex girl' into a search engine produced all sorts of interesting results, but unfortunately nothing to do with sailing! ------------- What could possibly go wrong? |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 Oct 13 at 8:07am
I've seen a few, unfortunately they tend to come with a gaff rig.
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 11 Oct 13 at 9:09am
45ish I think - it was certainly a generation different from the AC12 'Crusader'. http://www.merseaweek.com/2013/04/03/americas-cup-yachts-to-race-at-mersea-week/" rel="nofollow - but which one was back out racing again this summer... The Asymmetric or the 12m?  |
Posted By: Wetabix
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 11:36pm
| I am old enough to have lived through 'the Asymmetric Revolution' and recently acquired one. I have read everything there is to read on the subject (which is not very much) and have, of course, read Higher Performance Sailing. For many years (through my fifties and sixties ) I sat comfortably in my Phantom running more or less DDW and collected a fair proportion of the club's silverware the while. Now, I work like the proverbial one-armed paperhanger trying not to lose ground on the downwind legs to those Phantoms and, indeed, Lasers. Furthermore, because my asymmetric is of the furling variety, I have to put up with its considerable drag on the upwind legs. Suspecting that the boat would get round the course more quickly without it, I bought a SpeedPuck and have done a number of comparative runs around a course the check this. This has proved beyond doubt that soaking very deep is almost always quicker than pointing high and two sail running is not a lot slower. This, of course, is exactly what Frank Bethwaite says- only the 49er and the Tornado are fast enough to get the apparent wind effect and the rest of us are conning ourselves. And yet, as a recreational boat the Weta is enormous fun and capable of hauling a seventy-year-old around at fifteen knots at the right angles. The trouble is, that these angles don't very often occur on a racecourse and you spend a great deal of energy sailing frenetically back and forth only to see the Phantom arrive at the leeward mark ahead of you. Hopefully it will capsize during the gybe (which the Weta won't!). It helps, of course, if the course is a triangle which makes the Phantom sail a bit further, but it's not a lot slower on a beam reach and I will only make up a few seconds before having to furl my screacher, with much potential for a screw up. Which sums up the asymmetric thing - great fun but not actually fast in a mixed fleet. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 10:03am
Great post! The conclusion I have come to (for me anyway) is that sailing with an asymmetric on most dinghies can be great fun in planing conditions, but for competitive racing against boats that don't have them, on courses that don't favour them, it's a bit of a waste of time and adds unnecessary cost and complexity. Secondly if you look at the PY of the Weta verses the Laser or even the Phantom, you've got a lot of ground to make up upwind, after travelling at the same VMG downwind. That would be a frustrating race for some of us.  I doubt I will buy another asymmetric boat- especially a singlehander.
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Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 10:42am
but for competitive racing against boats that don't have them, on courses that don't favour them, it's a bit of a waste of time and adds unnecessary cost and complexity I doubt I will buy another asymmetric boat- especially a singlehander.
[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure my Musto sails down wind using the apparent wind effect, so not sure i believe that that only a 49 or faster can make it work. There's your problem, course that don't favour them......take a knife to a gun fight and you'll have to be lucky. Pick the right tool for the job, and learn to use it and its bloody brilliant. Most decent clubs have separate asymmetric fleets now don't they? Not sure i would buy any other asymmetric single hander other than a Musto. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 10:48am
no- although you'd be forgiven for thinking so given how many claim to have separate asymmetric fleets. The truth is in the answer to the following question... how many clubs out there have a decent take up for W/L racing- like you guys at Datchet get- with a dedicated start and W/L course? I dunno.... but my experiences suggest it's far less than those who claim to have it on their websites. We advertise it, offer it on occasion... but trying to get any consistency and critical mass is a PITA for all involved.
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Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 10:57am
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I have been watching and reading this for some time now. I struggle to understand this "apparent wind effect" chat. Are you really saying that most boats sail on true wind and only a few can sail on apparent wind. Errrr... fatal error in your physics here. I hate to break it to you all but every boat sails on apparent wind, just some the angle between apparent wind and true wind is greater due to increased hull speeds. I don't understand where you draw the line on this effect, there isnt a line in reality, it is just how sailing works... if everyone sailed AC72s would you say that a 49er is not an apparent wind boat. After all, the apparent wind angle on a 72 never goes above around 10 degrees, even downwind. On a 49er it generally hovers around 90 degrees, as a guess. Perhaps this will help dispel this tedious belief that some boats are apparent wind boats and some boats aren't. If it is just a loosely used term then I really struggle to understand how some boats are and some boats aren't? Is it a fixed difference in angle between TWA and AWA? Someone please explain!?
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 11:27am
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I think a lot of folks get blinded by their amateur science- obviously we all use apparent wind, and downwind sailing has always been about the angles, not the rhumline. The problem really boils down to the fact that it pays to soak really low (or just not use the kite and sail lower, or on the non-kiteable rhumline of a reach). This applies mainly for the asymmetric boats with smaller kites where they lack the righting moment to really squeeze out the performance needed. However folks bought those boats on the basis they'd transform offwind into screaming kite reaches and a popular misnomer that DDW would become tactical again.... it always was, even if you followed the heard on the rhumline and had the occasional luffing handbagging to spice it up. I guess it has made the tactics more obvious, in so much as the best tactic is to, quite often, leave it in the sock- especially on puddles RTC... which is fairly self defeating for the concept of asymmetric sailing.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 11:51am
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Handicaps on the sea......bought a 200 at the start of the season. Disappointing in the extreme for all the reasons highlighted in the last few posts (plus a few more boat specific reasons) . Didn't get a chance to do any opens this year and I don't suppose next year will be any different. Selling it shortly. |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 11:59am
All boats sail in apparent wind. We all know that. The apparent wind effect referred to is about boats that have sufficient sail area, sail carrying power, and are light enough such when heading downwind you're never in soak mode - heating up get/keep on the plane and then coming down as the apparent moves forwards is always the fastest way downwind, no matter what the TWS. |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 12:03pm
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Unless something's changed this summer whilst I've not been there/been not sailing due to a broken boat, Grafham's main handicap fleet is the assymetric one, sailing mainly W/L ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 12:04pm
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Al, don't let facts get in the way of a good thread. ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 12:05pm
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There are, of course, many more boats than the 49er and Tornado that do this - maybe he was referring to the Olympic boats of the time? From the MPS to I14's, loads of modern cats, the 800 - basically all the boats that the Rotomoulds of this world are trying to look vaguely like in order to sell the image without the scariness and difficulty. The cruising boats like this also have the purpose of being easy. It is the slow racing boats that I struggle with the basic concept of, but as they make up some of the best Nats fleets around, lots of people must love the concept of soaking. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 12:15pm
quite right... but interesting to see Rutland's results- no dedicated W/L racing for slower asymmetrics. http://rutlandsc.co.uk/clubresults/2013/SUMMER%20PM%20completed.htm http://rutlandsc.co.uk/clubresults/2013/13102013%20AUTUMN%20AM%20SERIES.htm and you'd have have great fun chunting upwind in a hiker against this lot at Grafham... http://www.grafham.org/wp-content/uploads/_results/club/2013/Wednesday-Evening-Series-2013.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.grafham.org/wp-content/uploads/_results/club/2013/Wednesday-Evening-Series-2013.htm When choosing a new club it pays to really dig down into what is actually happening, not what is on their website and/or what people seem to think they know about what's happening. I always thought there was a proper fleet of RS100s at Hayling... however the results suggest otherwise. Look at the individual races and you'd see you're not guaranteed anyone to race against in the same class... http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/44119/sunearlysummermedasy.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/44119/sunearlysummermedasy.htm http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/51978/sunlatesummermedasy.htm#r1" rel="nofollow - http://www.hisc.co.uk/media/51978/sunlatesummermedasy.htm#r1
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 12:18pm
| At my club we tried W/L for a while, but the RS200 and RS400 sailors got bored with them and decided they wanted to sail 4 mark courses with the other classes. |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 12:21pm
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Absolutely right James I would love it they have a load of 400's. Best boat for us to race against, very close speed wise so I would be really happy to be racing them ------------- |
Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 1:20pm
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Interesting reading...we've now got a growing fleet of B14's at Netley SC (started with 2 at the beginning of 2013 now we have 9 and will be double figures for 2014) and we're going to be doing whenever possible ww/lw courses. ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 1:20pm
Surely the best boat to race against would be other D1's?
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Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 1:22pm
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That's why I said us not me. But we are talking mixed fleet racing not class racing, so for me I am happy to race boat on boat with a 400! ------------- |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 1:28pm
contradiction in terms mate... but I do admire this, even they probably view you as some billy-no-mates crewless pariah.
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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 1:34pm
------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 1:47pm
| Al- do they run a separate w/l course? |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 1:48pm
Really? I can't wait for my club to set a windward/leeward course, being the only asymmetric boat it's never going to happen though.... ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 2:01pm
On Sundays they share a start but there is a W/L course for assys. Wednesday evening SIs don't specify a course and I haven't been up there for racing so no idea. I'm looking forward to joing the assy fleet any day now. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 4:34pm
I think 'apparent wind boat' means different things to different people, but if you had to define it, I'd suggest a boat that can exceed the windspeed, so when you gybe the wind goes around the front instead of around the back. A 30ft 5 ton yacht can get its AWA well forwards in light air, but becomes a 'blow along boat' in force 4. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 4:37pm
Personally I can't get enough of decent w/l courses in planing conditions. But as our club sails mostly in a harbour, with wind that does not read the forecast, I'm happy with a bit of variety as when a w/l course is nobbled by a 45deg shift, it's better to be doing RTC. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 4:45pm
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That's another good point- waiting around for race officers to set square lines and true beats is one of those no-win situations for all- especially when it's cold, shifty, raining or just between races and the fleet and comm boat are getting a bit knackered. (And I note, no fun for the RO either- damned if s/he waits, damned if s/he doesn't!) I've certainly been kept hanging around far longer for w/l opens than any others I've done in the past.
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