Asymmetrics - Luffing to the point of capsize?

   In a hypothetical situation of two fast assy's sailing downwind in a fair breeze, leeward boat luffs windward boat with rights as per R11, however it becomes clear that in going up, the windward boat is unable to hold the boat flat in the breeze, and will capsize. 
Is the leeward boat required to give any consideration to this? Or can they keep luffing regardless? There is no real mention of any similar situation in the rules from what I've seen, only thing I could think of could maybe be on R2, fair sailing, if windward boat made it clear they were struggling and couldn't go any higher? 

So, is it fair to luff to the point of capsize?

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JTaylor Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 15 Jul 09 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10	Post Options Post Reply Quote JTaylor Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Asymmetrics - Luffing to the point of capsize? Posted: 03 Jan 13 at 2:44pm
	In a hypothetical situation of two fast assy's sailing downwind in a fair breeze, leeward boat luffs windward boat with rights as per R11, however it becomes clear that in going up, the windward boat is unable to hold the boat flat in the breeze, and will capsize. Is the leeward boat required to give any consideration to this? Or can they keep luffing regardless? There is no real mention of any similar situation in the rules from what I've seen, only thing I could think of could maybe be on R2, fair sailing, if windward boat made it clear they were struggling and couldn't go any higher? So, is it fair to luff to the point of capsize?

JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jan 13 at 3:08pm
	Yep

Neptune Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 08 Jun 09 Location: Berkshire United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314	Post Options Post Reply Quote Neptune Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jan 13 at 3:10pm
	I don't think there is anything to stop you in the rules. Might stop you being offered a beer in the bar afterwards though
	Musto Skiff and Solo sailor

Rupert Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rupert Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jan 13 at 3:35pm
	Having them capsize on you might not be too quick for either boat. Quite common for an Unarigged or 2 sailed boat to luff a spinnakered boat if they try and go to windward, and I've seen a few capsize then, too. Certainly I remember a foolish RS500 trying to go too close to windward of me once and failing to survive the luff which followed. Had he left more space, I'd have let him go.
	Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

pondmonkey Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 12 Aug 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2202	Post Options Post Reply Quote pondmonkey Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jan 13 at 4:03pm
	agreed with rupert, sail too close and I'll stuff.... but on the flip side , coming around a windward mark to a DDW course in my 100, I've been fannying around with the spinnaker halyard, only to have a unarig sail high of me to get past; then the kite goes up, I head up for some heat and then the unarig gets grotty that I'm luffing them off the rhumline... perfectly legal. ... another great example of PY racing in action.

alstorer Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 02 Aug 07 Location: Cambridge Online Status: Offline Posts: 2899	Post Options Post Reply Quote alstorer Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jan 13 at 4:24pm
	If the unavoidable capsize caused a collision, especially one that caused damage or injury, then I'd suspect that you'd be found to be in the wrong. Otherwise it's a case, for the fast assymetric, of not going there. Be aware of what is happening down the course. As the slow boat you definitely want to avoid contact; if you've got a shorter mast there's a decent chance that the rigging of a capsizing boat could go round your mast tip. This will prove to be very slow; there's a fair chance that you will come second last on handicap (to the boat you forced over) even if you don't get chucked. On the other hand; "proper course" allows a boat sailing angles to coome in to "leeward" of a boat sailing approximately dead down wind and luff them up. So the rules here are really rather evenly split between the fast/assys and the slow/symmetrics/no kites.
	-_ Al

GML Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Groupie Joined: 24 Jul 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 94	Post Options Post Reply Quote GML Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jan 13 at 4:25pm
	Luffing boat has to give windward boat room to keep clear - rule 16.1 Since windward boat is unlikely to have kept clear if she capsizes (luffing boat is likely to have to take avoiding action), question is: did she capsize because her crew were incompetent, or because she was not given enough room to keep clear? If the latter, then in my opinion the luffing boat has broken rule 16.1 and should be penalised, whereas whilst the windward boat has broken rule 11 she should be exonerated under rule 64.1(a) as she was compelled to break rule 11 as a consequence of the luffing boat's breach of rule 16.1 So, in my opinion, you cannot legally luff a (competently crewed) boat until she capsizes - you have to give her the room to keep clear of you without forcing her into an unseamanlike manouver (and capsizing is not seamanlike in this context).

pondmonkey Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 12 Aug 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2202	Post Options Post Reply Quote pondmonkey Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jan 13 at 4:56pm
	thanks GML, but ... don't they have the option to take down the kite though?

JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jan 13 at 5:06pm
	I think it fair to say that's an exceedingly unconventional interpretation of the rules.

GML Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Groupie Joined: 24 Jul 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 94	Post Options Post Reply Quote GML Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jan 13 at 5:10pm
	Yes indeed pondmonkey, but only if the luffing boat has given them enough room to do so!