Is the leeward boat required to give any consideration to this? Or can they keep luffing regardless? There is no real mention of any similar situation in the rules from what I've seen, only thing I could think of could maybe be on R2, fair sailing, if windward boat made it clear they were struggling and couldn't go any higher? 

So, is it fair to luff to the point of capsize?

... another great example of PY racing in action.

 

As the slow boat you definitely want to avoid contact; if you've got a shorter mast there's a decent chance that the rigging of a capsizing boat could go round your mast tip. This will prove to be very slow; there's a fair chance that you will come second last on handicap (to the boat you forced over) even if you don't get chucked.

 

On the other hand; "proper course" allows a boat sailing angles to coome in to "leeward" of a boat sailing approximately dead down wind  and luff them up. So the rules here are really rather evenly split between the fast/assys and the slow/symmetrics/no kites.

 

Since windward boat is unlikely to have kept clear if she capsizes (luffing boat is likely to have to take avoiding action), question is: did she capsize because her crew were incompetent, or because she was not given enough room to keep clear?

 

If the latter, then in my opinion the luffing boat has broken rule 16.1 and should be penalised, whereas whilst the windward boat has broken rule 11 she should be exonerated under rule 64.1(a) as she was compelled to break rule 11 as a consequence of the luffing boat's breach of rule 16.1

 

So, in my opinion, you cannot legally luff a (competently crewed) boat until she capsizes - you have to give her the room to keep clear of you without forcing her into an unseamanlike manouver (and capsizing is not seamanlike in this context).

thanks GML, but

That said, the original question was about asymmetric dinghies sailing downwind - in which case if the wind is strong enough that a boat is at risk of capsizing when they luff above a certain course then they probably aren't going to be able to drop the kite without bearing away first (at least not if they are any sort of high performance asymmetric boat) - so unless they can keep the boat upright until the luffing boat has sailed far enough ahead for them for them to be able to bear away across her stern, I'm not sure this is going to help much.

 

No JVSAIL, proper course of the windward boat is irrelevant; as windward boat she is simply obliged by rule 11 to keep clear of the leeward boat (and is in fact obliged to do so as far as is possible sailing in a seamanlike manner, even if the leeward boat is herself breaking a rule).

MR CALL  G2   (UMP 33) Rule 16.1  Changing Course Definitions Room Question 1 Blue is sailing to leeward of Yellow. Rule 17 does not apply. Both boats have spinnakers set. Blue luffs Yellow. What are the obligations on Blue and Yellow? Answer 1 Yellow is required to keep clear and Blue is required to give Yellow room to  respond to her luff. While Yellow is able to keep the majority of her spinnaker  filled and drawing she is not entitled to additional room to drop her spinnaker.  If Blue continues her luff so that Yellow, in order to keep clear, has to luff  beyond the point where she can keep her spinnaker filled and drawing, then Blue  must give Yellow room to drop her spinnaker. Whether or not Yellow drops her spinnaker at that time, she is still required to  keep clear. If she does not drop her spinnaker at that time, then Blue is not  required to give her additional room to drop the spinnaker later in that luff.

As far as I know none of the relevant rules are changed by the MR appendix so the interpretation for fleet racing should be the same.

I guess the original situation I had in mind from personal experience was fleet racing in a one design such as the 800, with the crew of the windward boat not having as much beef on board as the leeward boat. Heavier crew intentionally luffs in the knowledge they can sail higher with the extra weight, with the aim of getting the windward boat to either have to dump/pin the kite, drop or face capsizing.

So it would seem that this, while a little unsporting, is still a windward boat situation under R11, provided time and opportunity is given to keep clear?

 

Isn't that exactly the way the game is meant to be played?

I'd say this is correct, had to prove which it is though and If the windward boat isn't used to sailing with Assy's their likely to shout at you..... a lot!

This whole thing seems fairly easy to me, a RoW boat changing course must give the keep clear boat time to keep clear in a seamanlike manner. Neither capsizing nor sailing on a reach with your kite flogging are seamanlike so if they are your only options the RoW boat has broken the rules. However dropping your kite and then heading up is seamanlike so if they give you space to do it and then continue to luff you are obliged to.

This is certainly the interpretation that has led the the MR call I posted earlier, however as MR tends to be conducted in symmetric keelboats where a good crew can strip the kite on any point of sail in <5sec it is a bit different to an assy dinghy already on the ragged edge.

 

If there's room to stuff up then that might be possible- though tricky, even with it flogging a spinnaker will tend to push the nose away from the wind. The boat would very quickly and possibly uncontrolably start going sideways and/or backwards- though hopefully by this point the boat forcing the luff would have sailed out from underneath and away.

I agree - the days of the aggresive luff are over.  In my RS700 I tend to be overpowered a lot of the time so heading up is not an option as I capsize on top of the leeward boat and to drop the kite involves a big bear away which would result in a collision.  As long as I gain the windward overlap fairly and keep clear (ie feet not inches to windward), it is very difficult to legally luff me very far.  I'm not obliged to predict a luff.

 

16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other
boat room to keep clear

 

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to
comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while
manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way

 

Keep Clear A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat
(a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take
avoiding action and,
(b) when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can
also change course in both directions without immediately

An given all the bleating about how hard it is luff n' stuff an asymmetric, then you've probably not left enough room to bear away in the event of a freak gust anyway.  So quite frankly, if you capsize because you enabled someone in some slow tub to luff you, then more fool you for passing too close or not going to leeward for the bragging rights!!!

Originally posted by alstorer I do somewhat agree with you opondmonkey, but sometimes no amount of shouting will stop the stick waggler for taking us to idiotic postions.

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Without a jib to balance the boat, a flogging kite in any wind will see my boat screw up and capsize very quickly, a luff will have me in very quickly and oversheeting see's me heal and capsize unless linked to a sharp bear away into the leeward boat.  Seamanlike means different things in different boats :o)

 

Originally posted by JimC I find all this "you can't luff asymettrics" stuff to be a very bizarre interpretation, and I think unless someone can demonstrate an appeal or case to support it sailors would be well advised not to rely on it.

 

It would be interesting to see what the official line is.  Whenever I've discussed the rules with experienced Judges, I've often been surprised at how much I've "assumed" and have learnt to read the rules much more closely as a result, which is how I got to this interpretation.

 

Originally posted by Neptune ........but it does worry me that some interpretations of the rules are so wildly different that its no wonder incidents happen

 

I agree, I've been avoiding handicap racing/meetings for years as a result....

 

Ian

 

I have never said you couldn't luff an asymmetric, merely that any boat doing do still needed to comply with rule 16.1.

 

As you say, an ISAF Case would be determinative, but I can't find one.

 

But as Quagers has pointed out, there is an official ISAF Match Racing Call that covers almost exactly this situation (MR Call G2 (Ump 33)) and it says:

Whilst only authorative for umpired match racing, none the less, in that context it is authorative (it is the official answer). And the Match Racing Rules do not change rules 11, 16.1 or 17, so unclear to me why the answer in a fleet racing situation would be any different.

 

You should not rely on anything I say - I give no guarantee as to its fitness for any purpose.

 

The disappearanced of the 'luff trap' hard luff with contact, is no news, and it was rule 16.1 that did away with it, but, provided rule 16.1 is adhered to, there is absolutely nothing in the rules to discourage aggressive manoeuvering to place another boat in a position of breaking a rule and being obliged to take a penalty.  That's the way the game is played.

 

It needs to be clearly understood that the test of 'seamanlike' is NOT that some particular boat, with perhaps inadequately skilled or weighty crew, may capsize or choose to riskily rag her kite.  The test for 'room' is the space required by a hypothetical boat, with the same characteristics as the actual boat in question, handled by a 'competent but not expert, crew of the appropriate number for the boat' (Case 103)

If its 5knts then go crazy. 

This issue of the spinnaker being filled and drawing is a much finer point and I would agree that most protest committees probably won't side with you on that one.

The bit of analysis that I think has been missed is that if W can capsize without hitting L then she has been given the room required in 16.1.

And even if she can't I think in any such situation W would have to have a very clear case and evidence that she had left enough of a gap between herself and L.

And often in these situations there is actually no luff involved: at the GGP I twice had just this issue when I had elected not to hoist and was therefore sailing a proper course significantly higher than the rhumb line - spi (not just assym) boats ended up in real trouble above me having made an assumption about my intentions.  Neither swam....

We should also remember that deliberatelly swinging the rig to windward constitutes a luff - the corollary must be that you must allow room for your rig to heel to leeward as you are establishing your passing lane....

And that if your exhaust brings the leeward over in to you then tough sh*t again.

For example, if you are overtaking to windward you must leave enough space to 'keep clear' of them (allow them to alter course in either direction without immediately causing a collision) You are under absolutely no obligation to anticipate that they will luff, even if its the most obvious thing in the world, even if they shout that they are going to! Until they actually alter course you do not need to do anything more than keep clear. Once they do alter course you must continue to try and keep clear but they must give you time and space to do so, and that time and space is completely dependant on the conditions and the characteristics of the boats.

I think people often forget just how limiting R16.1 is, I'd say in almost 50% of luffs I see in team racing which result in contact it goes against the leeward boat.

Originally posted by sargesail And I don't think the MR call has any cross relevance....it's an Umpires Call, no more no less.

While I don't think it can be directly applied I think you can take from it the intention of the rules. After all it tells umpires how to rule in this situation and even in match racing (in this case) they are governed by the same rules. It clearly shows that the definition of room to keep clear should take into account sail handling which is very applicable in this case.

All of this discussion only applies if a leeward boat is changing course (eg. luffing)  it the windward boat has simply burned over the top then got themselves in trouble without leeward changing course then its all on them.

As for the particulars of that call, it is simply a match racing call and applies whenever appendix C is in force completely independent of the boats being sailed. Having said that obviously most MR is done in keel boats so that is where the focus is. But the rules and principles do not change just the time and space needed as boats and conditions change.  

Quagers - you've missed or ignored the thrust of RS400s point....he's using the proper course as an illustration of the flaw in applying the MR Call in Fleet racing.....let me take this on a little further to explain.  Let's imagine that L luffs, W successfully keeps clear and then is capsized by a gust or a wave, or a pure error, after L has stopped changing course.....surely you would not argue that that is L's infringement under 16.1?

And equally I think that if half the L's with contact go against the leeward boat in Team racing then that illustrates that in 50% of cases 16.1 was not a factor....which means that (since the vast majority of luffs don't end with contact or a protest call), that in the vast majority of luff situations 16.1 is not a factor.

It amazes me that we are still in a corrective phase in this one....when the rule changed the interpretation went too far...and we are still getting people using it as a defence when they get too close to a leeward boat.

For W to have kept clear L must be able to alter course in either direction without making immediate contatct with W.  There is no limit to the size of that luff within the rules (less for 16.1) - so if you are passing to W and L can achieve immediate contact then W should be out.

I don't disagree with (almost) any of this, my comments and interpretation were purely to do with the situation we were talking about which was an aggressive luff from L immediately causing W to capsize. If L is not changing course (or has not very recently) then she is in no danger of protest at all.

Originally posted by sargesail  And equally I think that if half the L's with contact go against the leeward boat in Team racing then that illustrates that in 50% of cases 16.1 was not a factor....which means that (since the vast majority of luffs don't end with contact or a protest call), that in the vast majority of luff situations 16.1 is not a factor.

Just plucking rough numbers out of my head but I'd say that at the level I see (UK uni circuit) 50% of luffs result in contact/protests (especially on starts or down the run). That means that in TR 25% of all luffs have a 16.1 element, I'd say that's pretty large!

As a point of interest when I first started TR from fleet racing I used to always assume the windward boat was wrong in a luff with contact unless it was very very obviously otherwise. Nowadays though I find I am almost watching the leeward boat more than the windward (not quite but close).

Originally posted by sargesail  And equally I think that if half the L's with contact go against the leeward boat in Team racing then that illustrates that in 50% of cases 16.1 was not a factor....which means that (since the vast majority of luffs don't end with contact or a protest call), that in the vast majority of luff situations 16.1 is not a factor.

Just plucking rough numbers out of my head but I'd say that at the level I see (UK uni circuit) 50% of luffs result in contact/protests (especially on starts or down the run). That means that in TR 25% of all luffs have a 16.1 element, I'd say that's pretty large!

As a point of interest when I first started TR from fleet racing I used to always assume the windward boat was wrong in a luff with contact unless it was very very obviously otherwise. Nowadays though I find I am almost watching the leeward boat more than the windward (not quite but close).

So 75% have no 16.1....that's a hefty majority!  I'm not altogether surprised to see that the % of luffs with contact is higher in Uni Team Racing than in the service and other stuff I do....probably also builds a picture of why the 16.1 figure is also high....

I find that I get most calls when I luff, stop, make mu point anout keeping clear, and then either luff again, or go straight to red.

That's the way to do it, as a RoW boat pushing a situation to contact is always risky. If there is no contact the worst it'll be for you is green flagged. We have such a hard time trying to get this across to new team racers.