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ohFFsake View Drop Down
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Posts: 219 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mark room or Port/Starboard
    Posted: 11 Jan 13 at 12:40am
Facts found?
 
Both parties seem to agree that at the point Y tacked onto port he was clear ahead of B. Therefore rule 18 ceases to apply as Y can't go past head to wind unless he is overlapped inside at that time.
 
So regardless of proximity to the mark it is surely a fairly simple Port v Starboard?
 
But not that simple...
 
B admits that he went wide and then headed up whilst clear astern in order to make a tight mark rounding. It seems to me that the timing of this with respect to the tack by Y is the crux of the issue. If at the point Y tacked he was able to keep clear of B on his course at that time then surely any subsequent alteration of course by B that leavecs Y unable to avoid him is B's fault?
 
But if B tacked later, ie after Y's course change, then he's at fault, and if he wanted to have room to tack under rule 18 should have slowed down earlier to force B outside and ensure he was still overlapped at the point he passed head to wind, as mentioned earlier.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 9:04am
Originally posted by Simon368

There was no doubt I (the Lightning) was at the mark as with the tide pushing me up against as I rounded i was to intent on watching whether I had cleared it to notice the Steaker until he shouted. Because the wind was at approx. 90deg to the course my action was to sail slightly passed the mark (to allow for the light wind and tide) and put in a tack and head back the direction i had come from. If I was at a leeward mark and hardening onto a beat I would hold my hand up as wrong but my 'proper course ' was to tack an head back up river. At the point of the incident i doubt that even 50% of the Streaker was alonside the mark.
The fact that the Streaker immediately tacked after avoiding me evidence of this?

This is precisely why you should have taken it to protest, informal of course over a couple of beers and your local rules guru. That way you can get 'facts found' and both of you know what to do (or not do) if this happens again.

It is impossible to interpret on the internet as both sides have a different story and each seems valid in this case.

Were I asked to sit on a PC for this it would have to come down to facts found, you extrapolate forward from there.
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 2:52pm
The only way to really get a answer on time & distances is to sit in a room, push models and ask questions, AKA protest. As a place for determining facts found, the internet doesn't really work. 

Edited by Presuming Ed - 18 Dec 12 at 2:55pm
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Simon368 View Drop Down
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Posts: 20 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon368 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 1:29pm
There was no doubt I (the Lightning) was at the mark as with the tide pushing me up against as I rounded i was to intent on watching whether I had cleared it to notice the Steaker until he shouted. Because the wind was at approx. 90deg to the course my action was to sail slightly passed the mark (to allow for the light wind and tide) and put in a tack and head back the direction i had come from. If I was at a leeward mark and hardening onto a beat I would hold my hand up as wrong but my 'proper course ' was to tack an head back up river. At the point of the incident i doubt that even 50% of the Streaker was alonside the mark.
The fact that the Streaker immediately tacked after avoiding me evidence of this?


Edited by Simon368 - 18 Dec 12 at 1:30pm
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 12:34pm
This is why when you are inside boat it pays to cover these situations by slowing down and forcing the outside boat to go round you, that way the gap is just not there or is too small be be used.

From the description of 1 helm he was tacking at the mark, from the description of the other helm he was past when mark when he tacked.

It will come down to 'facts found' by the PC, only then can the rules be applied (this is why sometimes it is important to have 

If you believe poster A then the Streaker is at fault, if you believe poster B then the Lightning is at fault... A witness would be most useful and probably key to this depending on what each party said.

I would be inclined to believe that if the Streaker was on course to hit admiships on the Lightning that the Lightning was past the mark and as such had lost the right to tack as they were no longer 'at' the mark (that and if there was room for the Streaker get get inside, that is usually a sign that they are too far away to be considered at).

Just my 2p....
Paul
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 11:06am
Originally posted by gerry L

the Lightning hardened up and once clear of the mark proceded to tack on to port. I was slightly higher haveing rouned up well away from the mark,if I had carried on I would have hit him amidships but managed to bearaway nearly enough but just touched his stearn.
As I am awear I didnot have to give him room to tack so it was simpley a case of P&S. ie he should not have tacked in my water and carried on till I tacked.

So it's back to the fundamental question I asked in post #7 about the relationship between the location of the boats and the mark when contact/course alteration to avoid contact was made. If the Lightning was past the mark, then she's no longer "at the mark" so mark room has finished. If she wasn't past the mark, then she's still has right to mark room. 

He said/he said on the internet is never going to get to an answer on that one. 

If you were overlapped outside and to leeward of him, then you did have to give him room to tack whilst he's at the mark - again, see the last sentence of the definition of mark room. 




Edited by Presuming Ed - 18 Dec 12 at 11:25am
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 11:01am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Originally posted by jeffers

As for right and wrong in this case I would not like to call as I thought that if you acquired right of way because of another boats actions (which happened in this case) the requirement to keep clear was always firmly on the boat that bestowed the right of way? I do not have a rule book to hand though so i cannot quote the relevant rule number.

If you sail from clear astern to leeward means you change from give way to right of way thanks to your own actions. therefore 15 applies to you.
While its true that if you acquire right of way because of your own actions rule 15 applies, 'because of your own actions' is NOT the test.
 
The test in rule 15 is acquiring right of way OTHER THAN because of the other boat's actions.
 
Thus in a situation like this, with a hook up from clear astern, you don't have to say the right of way changes because of Astern's actions:  it suffices that it was NOT because of Ahead's actions.
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 10:49am
Originally posted by jeffers

As for right and wrong in this case I would not like to call as I thought that if you acquired right of way because of another boats actions (which happened in this case) the requirement to keep clear was always firmly on the boat that bestowed the right of way? I do not have a rule book to hand though so i cannot quote the relevant rule number.

If you sail from clear astern to leeward means you change from give way to right of way thanks to your own actions. therefore 15 applies to you. If you establish the overlap within 2bl, leeward can sail no higher than her proper course. 

If the initial situation as described by the OP is something like this, then yellow is subject to 16.1 during her luff, and as described above, blue is constrained by 15 &17 after she establishes the overlap to leeward. 

2bl 
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gerry L View Drop Down
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Posts: 1 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gerry L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 10:16am
I was sailing the Streaker and  this is as I see the incedent
As we got near the mark I tried to get an inside overlap but he wouldnt let me so I went wide so as to round up tight round the mark, the Lightning hardened up and once clear of the mark proceded to tack on to port. I was slightly higher haveing rouned up well away from the mark,if I had carried on I would have hit him amidships but managed to bearaway nearly enough but just touched his stearn.
As I am awear I didnot have to give him room to tack so it was simpley a case of P&S. ie he should not have tacked in my water and carried on till I tacked.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 10:10am
Originally posted by jeffers

As for right and wrong in this case I would not like to call

Definitely unwise to call without knowing how the other boat saw it. Its amazing how often two folks' perception of the same incident can be very different.
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