sailing on a river and wind is light and direction erratic. Two boats reaching downriver on starboard to a mark to be left to starboard. Course away from mark is another reach/fetch on port back up river so boats will have to tack round the mark.

 

Lightning is ahead, Steaker behind goes to windward outside of 3 boat lengths, swift Luff by Lightning and Streaker bears away behind to go to leeward of Lightning. Streaker is overlapped ourtside as they enter 3 boat lenghts.

 

The Lightnings proper course is the tack round the mark and head back off up the river. Being inside boat Lightning tacks round the mark, not a good rounding as Steaker has held him tight and tide is pushing him away from the mark. Steaker hardens up calls starboard just as Lightning is competing the tack. Contact is made.

 

So Lighting arguement is that they had mark room, streaker should have given room to complete tack as this was the proper course.

 

Streaker arguement, mark room is irrelavent as Lightning had gone round the mark, port starboard applies.

I have read the rules and still am unsure who was right?

Case 25, Luightning to windward and with an overlap was not sailing below proper her course,

Case 95 concerns beating, we were on a typical river course. reach down to a mark, tack round it reach back.

I think the point in questions is whether the action of tacking from starboard to port whilst rounding the mark is allowed in rule 18 when the outside boat (on starboard) can alter course immediately you have tacked to make contact and call starboard.

Best to draw a picture. Boat Scenario is free. http://boats.sourceforge.net/

Fundamentally - where was the mark when contact made? 

S was partly right, but rule 10, port/starboard was not the only rule that still applied.

 

L was initially overlapped inside and entitled to mark-room, thus the mark-room to which she was entitled included room to tack (Definition:  mark-room), as long as it lasted.

 

When L, in tacking, passed head to wind, boats came to be on opposite tacks, and the proper course of S at the mark, but not of L, was to tack.  Rule 18, from that instant ceased to apply (rule 18.1( b )), (Case 15 last sentence).  Room to tack only allows room until you have passed head to wind.

 

You said S hardened up and contact occurred.  That sounds like S, the right of way boat changing course did not give L room to keep clear, so S broke rule 16.1, and quite likely rule 14.

 

L on Port did not keep clear of S on starboard, so L broke rule 10, but if S did not give L room to keep clear, then L would have been compelled to break rule 10 by S breaking rule 16.1 and L shold be exonerated in accordance with rule 64.1( c ).

 

Originally posted by Simon368 i will try to use the software to show positions but I was 'overlapped to windward and on the indside 'as I approached the mark and the mark would have been alonside my staboard side amidships as I existed the tack on port

 

The issue is not whether your were 'at' the mark (which on your diagram, I don't dispute you were).  On my analysis, as you originally described it, once you passsed head to wind, rule 18 went off in its entiriey.  I agree with PEd that, as diagrammed, S had already failed to give you mark-room before you luffed and passed head to wind.

 

Originally posted by Rupert Surely there has to be time and opportunity to keep clear following the tack?  If the tide is taking you, then opportunity is not there. And if you are still in the process of rounding the mark, then you still have mark room. And, as was said, if a boat deliberately luffs to hit you, they are in the wrong, whatever else happens.

 

Rupert, please join us in the 21st century.  The entitlement conferred by rule 16.1 is an entitlement to room, being 'The space a boat needs in the existing conditions while manoeuvring
promptly in a seamanlike way'.  The concept of time is conveyed by 'promptly' and there is nothing about 'opportunity'.

 

@4, Y is past head to wind, rule 18 is off, and B breaks rule 16.1.

 

see previous page there is a website address. Only found it today

Yellow is overlapped inside to windward. Defn of mark room includes room for inside boat to tack. Yellow has right to tack and sail proper course at mark. 

Match racing tactics 101. If clear ahead at the top mark, slow and get the opposition overlapped outside you. They then have to give you room to tack. Defence is never to give the overlap - keep eyes open, and match speed with boat ahead. 

Again, defns. Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room.

 

But it makes no difference.  Rule 18.1 does not change in 2013.

 

From an application of rules point of view, the reason you are not allowed room to complete your tack once you have passed head to wind is that, in the specific circumstances where the proper course of the other boat at the mark is to tack, once you pass head to wind, you are not entitled to any mark-room at all, because rule 18 ceases to apply.

As for right and wrong in this case I would not like to call as I thought that if you acquired right of way because of another boats actions (which happened in this case) the requirement to keep clear was always firmly on the boat that bestowed the right of way? I do not have a rule book to hand though so i cannot quote the relevant rule number.

As we got near the mark I tried to get an inside overlap but he wouldnt let me so I went wide so as to round up tight round the mark, the Lightning hardened up and once clear of the mark proceded to tack on to port. I was slightly higher haveing rouned up well away from the mark,if I had carried on I would have hit him amidships but managed to bearaway nearly enough but just touched his stearn.

As I am awear I didnot have to give him room to tack so it was simpley a case of P&S. ie he should not have tacked in my water and carried on till I tacked.

If you sail from clear astern to leeward means you change from give way to right of way thanks to your own actions. therefore 15 applies to you. If you establish the overlap within 2bl, leeward can sail no higher than her proper course. 

If the initial situation as described by the OP is something like this, then yellow is subject to 16.1 during her luff, and as described above, blue is constrained by 15 &17 after she establishes the overlap to leeward. 

2bl 

While its true that if you acquire right of way because of your own actions rule 15 applies, 'because of your own actions' is NOT the test.

 

The test in rule 15 is acquiring right of way OTHER THAN because of the other boat's actions.

 

Thus in a situation like this, with a hook up from clear astern, you don't have to say the right of way changes because of Astern's actions:  it suffices that it was NOT because of Ahead's actions.

So it's back to the fundamental question I asked in post #7 about the relationship between the location of the boats and the mark when contact/course alteration to avoid contact was made. If the Lightning was past the mark, then she's no longer "at the mark" so mark room has finished. If she wasn't past the mark, then she's still has right to mark room. 

He said/he said on the internet is never going to get to an answer on that one. 

If you were overlapped outside and to leeward of him, then you did have to give him room to tack whilst he's at the mark - again, see the last sentence of the definition of mark room. 

From the description of 1 helm he was tacking at the mark, from the description of the other helm he was past when mark when he tacked.

It will come down to 'facts found' by the PC, only then can the rules be applied (this is why sometimes it is important to have 

If you believe poster A then the Streaker is at fault, if you believe poster B then the Lightning is at fault... A witness would be most useful and probably key to this depending on what each party said.

I would be inclined to believe that if the Streaker was on course to hit admiships on the Lightning that the Lightning was past the mark and as such had lost the right to tack as they were no longer 'at' the mark (that and if there was room for the Streaker get get inside, that is usually a sign that they are too far away to be considered at).

Just my 2p....

The fact that the Streaker immediately tacked after avoiding me evidence of this?

This is precisely why you should have taken it to protest, informal of course over a couple of beers and your local rules guru. That way you can get 'facts found' and both of you know what to do (or not do) if this happens again.

It is impossible to interpret on the internet as both sides have a different story and each seems valid in this case.

Were I asked to sit on a PC for this it would have to come down to facts found, you extrapolate forward from there.

 

Both parties seem to agree that at the point Y tacked onto port he was clear ahead of B. Therefore rule 18 ceases to apply as Y can't go past head to wind unless he is overlapped inside at that time.

 

So regardless of proximity to the mark it is surely a fairly simple Port v Starboard?

 

But not that simple...

 

B admits that he went wide and then headed up whilst clear astern in order to make a tight mark rounding. It seems to me that the timing of this with respect to the tack by Y is the crux of the issue. If at the point Y tacked he was able to keep clear of B on his course at that time then surely any subsequent alteration of course by B that leavecs Y unable to avoid him is B's fault?

 

But if B tacked later, ie after Y's course change, then he's at fault, and if he wanted to have room to tack under rule 18 should have slowed down earlier to force B outside and ensure he was still overlapped at the point he passed head to wind, as mentioned earlier.