Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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List classes of boat for sale |
Hybrid ! |
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H2 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Jul 17 Online Status: Offline Posts: 750 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 20 May 20 at 8:02am |
The H2 has an adjustable forestay, along with the kicker its the control that gets used the most to power up, depower but also to flatten the sail in a drifter. It also has a fully battened sail and a carbon mast and I have not heard of any mast's breaking because the forestay was left off, in fact we regularly sail downwind with the rigging very loose with no issues! So it can easily be done in my experience but probably not with a mast that was not carbon.
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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145 OK 2082 |
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Sam.Spoons ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3400 |
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The H2 has a deck stepped mast with no lowers. if the rig gets too slack it will just fall down. The issue with the Blaze was, I believe, to do with tight lowers and slack shrouds allowing the mast to invert and break where the lowers attach. Breakages were with both the carbon stick and the M7 which is which is generally considered indestructible.
The Class took a sensibly pragmatic approach and banned 'on the water' adjustable rigs following which I believe the problem went away. It might be interesting to see if any other classes with a similar setup have similar problems? Edited by Sam.Spoons - 20 May 20 at 9:46am |
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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Cirrus ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 590 |
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I've dealt with warranty claims for carbon masts sure ... it does happen occasionally. It even happens to that relatively 'SuperStiff' alloy M7 with some who also 'forget' .... IF you maintain lowers at a regular setting and then rake the mast via forestay you, of course, have to take up the slack as you switch to offwind. If you don't the lowers hold the bottom of the mast firm but the upper sections are not fully supported offwind by the (still) slack shrouds - the rig pivots at the mast/lowers attachment and goes 'over the front', it inverts and then can easily break. You can get away with it in lighter conditions but add a gusty 20+kn and maybe a few waves and the odds shorten quickly.
You could specify a very strong (usually stiff) carbon stick of course but can also lose much of the benefit from having a carbon one in the first place. Some makers eventually end up having to do this to still benefit from the 'carbon' marketing label while maintaining a commercially acceptable level of 'durability'. If you have lowers you have other options that avoid an over-stiff stick and all that entails. If you do not have lowers – well the mast is inevitably heavier and stiffer and possibly larger in section all other things being equal Hence the attraction of alternative de-powering approaches that can minimise risks yet maintain high(er) performance. One way is to have an (already) raked rig coupled to a sail design that really responds to Cunningham to blade off the roach - important to get the battening right naturally. Another very useful one is to look to slacken off the lowers 'on the fly' to allow more regular bend in the lower mast upwind rather than depower via forestay raking - you get a very similar effect to raking via forestay adjustment but it can be more forgiving in terms of necessary (and timely!) crew input. In fact I think much of the benefit of raking via forestay actually comes from the fact that this naturally slackens (set) lowers (allowing more mast bend etc) - So why not leave the shrouds and forestay alone and just adjust the lowers ? You do need a stick that is suitable of course .... As an extra safety feature you can also set up an extra line that runs from the bow forestay fitting to the lowers attachment on the front of the mast. This can be used to inhibit, or at least provide a maximum limit, on any tendency towards mast inversion.
Anyway the point made here is that there are usually more than one way .... Edited by Cirrus - 20 May 20 at 11:28am |
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H2 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Jul 17 Online Status: Offline Posts: 750 |
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Ah - yes the H2 has no lowers which is the difference!
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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145 OK 2082 |
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Cirrus ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 590 |
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Spent another couple of hours late Wednesday afternoon with 'Hybrid'. All it really needed for comfort was an adjustment of toestraps (now nice and cosy) plus wearing some decent hikers. We will make changes to the sit-out side deck positon in time but with hikers now it is well down the near future revise 'list'. Immediate things to try is 1) a tad more rake of the rig plus 1) a switch to a slightly smaller centreboard. Previous two sessions proved the boat pointed very high as hoped while still keeping pace on but a tad more rake may prove even more effective still. Need to quickly establish those limits. Any reduction in drag and weight with a smaller board cannot but help if the overall area really can be reduced - but there is nothing like actually sailing stuff to prove anything - The original board used in the first two outings was similar but is approx 15% larger in area though the same length overall. The focus now in summary is to optimise upwind performance as far as reasonably possible before anything else... generally speaking if you get that right initially the rest usually follows.... The sparring partner on Wednesday was interestingly an Icon so an excellent challenge with known and capable up-hill pointing characteristics - longer hull of course though broadly similar under water so it was interesting to see the relative strengths of the two boats. Breeze was again relatively light and not ever much more than 10 mph - ideal at this stage. So the few tweaks to sort later today (Friday) and another planned on-water session on Sunday with a slightly higher wind forecast at this point of 13-14mph. In some ways undertaking this sort of work without the distraction of formal class racing being available in established classes is good... you can focus on the task at hand and others seem very willing to act as distanced sparring partners .. as they keep a watchful eye on the 'strange new craft'....
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turnturtle ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 05 Dec 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2538 |
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it sounds like you're having a lot of fun in a lovely looking boat.... FWIW, I would ruin such a beautiful experience commercialising it to all the whims, conflicting desires and short pockets of the dinghy industry!
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Rupert ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Would or wouldn't? |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Cirrus ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 590 |
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Adjustments to the mast/deck step and a bit more rake seems to work ... plus a bit more slack in the lowers. This appears to allow the mast to 'work' a bit more upwind. Sunday was a slight step up in wind strength on the previous sessions and some full-on hiking with a bit of depower was needed on occasion. The alternative (slightly smaller) centre-board still fully maintained the upwind performance but things just felt a bit 'better' - difficult to define really but it is about the general 'feel' of a boat. Still have not tried the other available sails (different areas available) but the justification is to keep that aspect constant for a while yet and keep trying out different rig. settings. This time the 'stalking horses' included the regular Blazes plus a solitary Aero. In the full breeze occasionally available the Blazes looked very comfortable - as expected given the wing leverage but 'Hybrid' did not lose out too much. Offwind they are fairly equal in terms of performance - especially pleasing given the smaller sail area of Hybrid. Below wind of 10 mph or in lulls Hybrid had an edge and held the Blazes or crept away upwind for more of the time This was also fairly obvious running deep offwind .... But the hull is particularly easily driven and might equally work pretty well with the smaller sail as well- so might try that before too long. The Aero was limited by the 7m sail used but went well in the gusts. Next session is planned is Thursday /Friday.
Edited by Cirrus - 25 May 20 at 10:10am |
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turnturtle ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 05 Dec 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2538 |
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wouldn't!
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Cirrus ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 590 |
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wouldn't! I assume you refer to the 'smaller sail' comment. I/we are trying out all reasonable options to find out where the performance envelope starts and ends and assess everything along the way. The 'modern' approach anyway is to allow/use multiple sails .. to suit different helms and/or in different conditons. Now at my weight I'm unlikely to use much less than the 9.4m sail (used thus far) too frequently inland... but at a true 20+kn or anything like that I'd bet now you would get round a typical course as quick or quicker in Hybrid with less area (and in more control !)
![]() Edited by Cirrus - 25 May 20 at 3:27pm |
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