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Hybrid !

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13576
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 10:32pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Hybrid !
Posted By: Cirrus
Subject: Hybrid !
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 12:33pm




Replies:
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 12:53pm


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 12:53pm


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 12:54pm

Bimbling with boats is about all many of us can do for the foreseeable ...  So here is one I started cobbling together over the winter.  Just 'finished' this 'special' with the current limitations allowing a fast finish but cannot test / trial yet of course !! 

It is simply called 'Hybrid' for now and is 4.25m overall and maximum beam of 1.60m (and lightish).   A mixture of ideas in fact to trial / assess.  Initial sail area in photos is approx 9.3m2 and the spars used here are carbon.  Intended primarily as a non-winged hiking design with centreboard with a higher boom could also make a GRF style trapeze platform maybe.  Why do it ?   But equally and especially now ...Why Not !  



Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 1:26pm
Is that a Blaze rig on an Icon hull? I thought the gunwhale lines were straighter on Icon than in these pics?

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Nick
D-Zero 316



Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 2:46pm
quite H2-esque some might say ....

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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 3:00pm
More soap dish than the H2. My knees would hate it, I'm afraid.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 3:13pm

Not a Blaze rig ... though the mast is v.similar to both Icon and the Blaze 'family'.  Not H2 in terms of general ‘bulk’ or freeboard but with a bit more (v.necessary imo) than say a Zero.    The original concept was for an exceptionally easily driven simple hiking hull but not to the point of becoming ‘demanding’ light and simple but capable of carrying a reasonable weight.  The hull underwater is almost pure Icon, (cos that one really is slippery yet ‘easy’) but it is 215mm (9") shorter and the freeboard is very much less than found on an Icon or H2.  The sail in the pics is in fact based on an early Icon development main but modified by Dick Batt to suit the rig dimensions and rake.  (The boom is currently made from old Blaze outer wing tubes – cos I was waiting too long for a larger diameter tube to arrive)   So NS14 inspired with touches of Blaze, Icon. and yes even some  H2 and Zero in there if you like !    This concept is much lighter than say a Blaze and if ever in full epoxy would be much lighter still.





Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by Cirrus



.  Why do it ?


Because there is a gaping great hole where a sensible trapeze single hander should be, so we don't have to continue with the absurd notion that 15 grand gets you over 100 kilos to lug about...

And why can't there be a boat where you make a choice of trapeze or racks, they both pretty much do the same thing, except one looks much cooler and doesn't bugger your knees.

Then we won't have to bugger about ordering new sails to make our Farr 37s go early enough to cope with the Laserati off the start line..


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Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 3:57pm
H2 and a D0 had a child. I like it!

However, if I wanted a boat that was really nice to hike I would keep my H2 but if I wanted a boat that was more like a D0 but that carried more weight and I was willing to be on my knees downwind then it looks great.

Only question would be whether the rig was big enough? Most of the boats that aim at the bigger guys continue to feel a little under powered in my view, but that is a minor point!


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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 4:48pm
Of course nobody noticed it's April the 1st and he had a bunch of unused Icon hulls laying about...

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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 4:50pm
Too late, it was after 12.00

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Robert


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Cirrus



.  Why do it ?


Because there is a gaping great hole where a sensible trapeze single hander should be, so we don't have to continue with the absurd notion that 15 grand gets you over 100 kilos to lug about...

And why can't there be a boat where you make a choice of trapeze or racks, they both pretty much do the same thing, except one looks much cooler and doesn't bugger your knees.

Then we won't have to bugger about ordering new sails to make our Farr 37s go early enough to cope with the Laserati off the start line..

New fat head 3.7 sail looks quite nice. You've been more conservative with it than I thought you would.


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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 5:14pm
Big Fat heads are only any use for light to low medium winds, once any breeze from about force 3 up occurs you're just carrying around so much parasitic drag, I'm hoping this has enough to get me out on the wire in 8 knots instead of 10 and it will twist off rather than just flop, flack and drag like big Fat heads tend to. I've not seen it in the flesh, but he's a keen young sailmaker who uses what he makes and is handy, I've been ear bashing him since the dawn of time about the natural superiority of windsurfer style twist over dinghys and like Dan Holman obviously did with that Punk rig, I think he's got the message. It's a bit hooky and full upfront for my normal taste, but I've had to come to accept that is the way of dinghy world as the boats don't plane like raceboards (which are at the absolute minimum three times the weight) so need more torque.

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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 5:27pm
Of course nobody noticed it's April the 1st and he had a bunch of unused Icon hulls laying about

Well I might have wanted to 'troll the trolls' as well and today would have seemed the right time.   But it hopefully gives people something different to kick around and think about at the moment as well.  Anyway it is a 'one-off' and is intended to refine a few interesting ideas 'stolen' from other boats, nearly all of which I've had the opportunity to sail and even race.  Development is done that way and is often a process of refinement and optimisation.   Ask nicely when some relative sanity eventually returns and you might get to try 'Hybrid' for yourself  - for a beer maybe !   This is not necessarily a commercially motivated effort btw  - I'm done with building boats myself, I'll leave that to others now, but still like to try out ideas from time to time for myself.  Perhaps a few others out there can show us their 'Hybrids' as well ... This particular season is going to be rather long and tedious. 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 5:30pm
Well I'm glad you did Mike, I was going out of my mind watching Corona Virus not only confining me to barracks but boring me senseless on here, great to have something else to talk about.

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 5:34pm
Do you think the PYAG are locked down? They'd love to get their fangs into something like that, what do you reckon they'd give it 969 or 970, should be enough to kill it like they did the Icon.

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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 6:21pm
Wouldn't think they will publish this year.

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Robert


Posted By: iansmithofotley
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Wouldn't think they will publish this year.


It will probably be the same with the new Racing Rules, until after the Olympics next year.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 6:46pm
Would have been a good April fools joke to mock one up, with Farr 3.7 given a ridiculous number and Laser number substantially slower.

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Apr 20 at 10:36pm
TBF the 2020 PY number were released at the Dinghy show as usual.....

https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/PY%20Documentation/PN_List_2020.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/PY%20Documentation/PN_List_2020.pdf


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Apr 20 at 12:33am
Shhh

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Robert


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02 Apr 20 at 6:15am
Well done Cirrus and GRF for actually doing some development!  I like the look of both :)

The toe straps look a long way away? 


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Apr 20 at 6:46am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

TBF the 2020 PY number were released at the Dinghy show as usual.....
https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/PY%20Documentation/PN_List_2020.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/PY%20Documentation/PN_List_2020.pdf


2021 changes are the ones which might not happen if not enough racing takes place.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 02 Apr 20 at 8:50am

..... and (if) I was willing to be on my knees downwind then it looks great ...

One of the ideas considered but not tried on this 'Hybrid' was to recognise that many don't use decent knee pads.  So if ever a production version was on the cards, in some distant future, I would look at having the floor with sectioned recesses to inset  high(ish) density foam.  The areas would need to be fairly large - but at this stage it is simply not necessary and would be an extra complication.  Would be nice to be able to wear a shortie wetsuit in Summer and no knee pads ? Yes I know !

PN ?  Not of interest any more – given previous experience with that rat’s nest ...best I don’t comment too much.  I’m maybe not as conspiracy suspicious as say GRF but some of the ‘experimental’ numbers produced way back could have done with some ‘full workings shown’ to increase confidence at the time.    Far far too early to do more than speculate anyway ....







Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 02 Apr 20 at 8:56am
One of the advantages of the Solo is that the inside of the tanks are sufficiently close to the centreline that you can still perch on them while sailing downwind ... probably won’t work in this case but worth a thought.

Quite a sweet looking boat, would be in there with the Hadron if I was considering Handicap racing every weekend.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Apr 20 at 9:03am
Off the boom sheeting?
What about something like a spoiler across the back, perch on there when running?

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Robert


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 02 Apr 20 at 9:25am
If I'd seen this yesterday before 12 I would have posted you need to add a kite to it....

It's a lovely hull form Mike, hope you have fun with it at some point soon.


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 02 Apr 20 at 11:03am
Its a nice looking, and clean layout of a boat.

Not sure about the yellow take-up lines running down the side decks. Arnt you gonna be sitting on them and wont that be uncomfortable?

Also, it looks, as already suggested, the toes straps are too inboard.

Looks good though :-)


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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 02 Apr 20 at 4:08pm
Not sure about the yellow take-up lines running down the side decks. Arnt you gonna be sitting on them and wont that be uncomfortable?  Also, it looks, as already suggested, the toes straps are too inboard....

All easily changed ... but it suits (me) for now.  Regarding comfort I wear hikers anyway and yellow shock-cord is what I've got available here.  Just wanted the most simple fly-aways for now.  The prime point of 'Hybrid' is/was to see what works in terms of the hull form and rig(s).   The hull is very easily driven but not too 'tricky' at all  and this general form and rocker in other boats has proven very very slippery.  It also 'should' be good for 'heavies' but we would really have to establish the effective crew weight ranges on the water.  The spars could carry less sail area or go all the way up to about 11.5m (but I do not think that would be needed at the moment).  Toestraps - easy to change, modify, alter to suit crew sizes and preffered sailing style - and not something I'd ever propose restricting.  I've not mentioned hull weight yet .. it is lightish and is between 55-60kg with centreboard in place.  If it goes much further then 45-50kg would/could be the target in epoxy.  You could go lower of course but I'd be then start to get concerned about practicality /durability etc..

Maybe the forumites and 'powers that be amongst them' could run a 'specials' meeting (when circumstances permit of course) for a few or many of us to try out new ideas and 'odd craft' thrown together during this odd time in history.  Building / modifying craft without rules for a change is good fun occasionally and quite liberating as wel as educational.  It could get the minds of the many working on 'Hybrids' instead of thinking all the time about the bl**dy virus !!  


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 02 Apr 20 at 5:12pm
Great idea Mike! If you ever need a 95kg helm to act as a test dummy then just shout. 

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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 10 Apr 20 at 8:16am
Another teaser for you .....  Well you have got to try stuff !




Posted By: johnbrooker
Date Posted: 10 Apr 20 at 8:40am
She looks lovely. Makes me want to get back out on the water!

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Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 10 Apr 20 at 10:10am
Still looking forward to seeing that single handed hybrid on the water, I though she looked ace... swapsies for a sail when we are back at the club Cirrus.

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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Apr 20 at 10:14am
Originally posted by Cirrus

Another teaser for you .....  Well you have got to try stuff !


Put the forestay behind the kite chute. Seems an obvious solution that most dinghy designers fail to spot.

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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Apr 20 at 12:17pm
Lovely water and sunshine, any wind?

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Robert


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Apr 20 at 1:14pm
There's plenty of wind here, we've had days of champagne conditions, I get so I can't even bear to look.. going slowly sane, ordinary, compliant, old.

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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Apr 20 at 2:12pm
Think about that first sail   
I think sailing will see a boost in new sailors, people are going to want to do something, try new things.

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Robert


Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 10 Apr 20 at 3:38pm
If that had a symmetrical kite I would be interested.
The one real place no one has a serous go at tackling, a modern lark or scorp.
Well apart from the Merlin lol. But not everyone has 25 grand.


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Andy Mck


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 10 Apr 20 at 4:03pm
Forestay behind chute ?    

No a conscious design choice - with any very fine bow you can end up with a small and awkward shaped chute if you place the forestay behind.... or the forestay ends up a mile back along the foredeck.  We made a deliberate choice to have a relatively generous and low friction chute arrangement relative to other designs behind the forestay.  The clew on the asymetric is cut high on this craft to really aid crew sight lines offwind and this feature plus the very generous chute proportions make raising/dropping a doddle.  Much of the problem found with some designs has a lot to do with trying to get a large sail area and lowish clewed spinnaker into/out of a (relatively tight and under-sized) chute - regardless of where located....

     


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10 Apr 20 at 4:27pm
Is that the Rondar Icon derivative intended for the US market?  Is there any news on that front?  Looks good by the way!


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Apr 20 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Put the forestay behind the kite chute. Seems an obvious solution that most dinghy designers fail to spot.

It was a very common config in the early days of kite chutes, and you'll see it on a few classes still. Merlins for example. There are significant disadvantages though, which is why most classes have changed to having it further aft.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Apr 20 at 5:28pm
Switching tacks? Presumably it would foul forestay.

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Robert


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Apr 20 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by iGRF

Put the forestay behind the kite chute. Seems an obvious solution that most dinghy designers fail to spot.

It was a very common config in the early days of kite chutes, and you'll see it on a few classes still. Merlins for example. There are significant disadvantages though, which is why most classes have changed to having it further aft.

Significant disadvantages? Maybe on symmetrics where you need to recover the kite after the pole, not that I've got much of a clue about that ancient world, but Assyms? Can't see any, quite the opposite in fact, the kite needs to be close to the pole as it retracts. I have though often postulated about an alternative hybrid system between assym and sym using maybe a dangly pole so a system could be contrived to use round cans on lakes for a single hander, not fully thought it right through yet but I'm sure there must be a way.

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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 11 Apr 20 at 9:48am

Is that the Rondar Icon derivative intended for the US market? .....

 In short and in part 'yes' and this hull was the first out of the tooling - as a sailing test bed.  The new tooling can/could also supply the 2-sail Icon segment if there is demand with a different ‘population’ of parts and fittings.   It would even be possible as a prospective owner to switch between 2 and 3 sail modes’ in a couple of hours.  The underwater side is identical but the deck arrangements have many many refinements.  We learnt a hell of a lot from the original Icon, not least that the basics were far too good to be allowed to somehow ‘fail’ at the initial attempt.  In reality it is obviously not realistic to put a time scale on anything much at the moment, at least not yet .. and thank goodness the project was effectively 'frozen' a little way back due then to brexit trading uncertainty. ...).   Does not stop us dreaming and we all need a few of those at the moment..  

 


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 11 Apr 20 at 9:55am
Any reason you didnt keep the gnav for the current iteration?

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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 11 Apr 20 at 10:15am
Any reason you didnt keep the gnav for the current iteration?

The boat is a test bed... Advantages both ways as ever but nothing 'works' quite trying out all options and then making a decision.  It is too easy to rush to market having made assumptions on what is 'best'... time spend checking is no luxury.  


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 13 May 20 at 5:26pm
'Hybrid' moved to Burghfield earlier today .... prior to first water test planned for later this week.  We can all manage without formal racing for a while ...  anyway first task to to check basics and general 'balance' ....    It could be a long summer



Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 13 May 20 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

'Hybrid' moved to Burghfield earlier today .... prior to first water test planned for later this week.  We can all manage without formal racing for a while ...  anyway first task to to check basics and general 'balance' ....    It could be a long summer
Very nice boat. Following your progress.Thumbs Up


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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 May 20 at 5:48pm
Looking forward to seeing video of sailing, especially with a Blaze "sailing in company"!

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 17 May 20 at 10:54am
On the water at last for the first time this weekend.  A gentle start chasing a couple of Blazes around Burghfield in the sun ... at a 'distance respecting' basis of course for about 90 minutes.  Brilliant to be out there in anything really after the last couple of months.   The basic balance and handling is pretty much spot-on and it goes rather well both up and downwind with very good pointing angles with upwind pace already.   No vices to report in a breeze that was not ever more than 12mph but a bit of bimbling to do with toestraps perhaps inevitable and other tweaks will be needed I'm sure.  The sitting out area of the deck is not great yet but that was fully expected - will need to use some decent hiking shorts next week but longer term this area was to be modified anyway.  But at least now it looks like that additional effort is worth undertaking !. 






Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 17 May 20 at 12:03pm
It looked like a good start for the few minutes I watched. A powerful looking boat that’s going to take some strong hiking to get the potential from it so that deck shape and toe strap positions will be critical.

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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 17 May 20 at 3:23pm



Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 17 May 20 at 3:44pm
Was ‘alert’ and out on the water as this was being tested, very pretty boat and from where I was looked quick. 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 May 20 at 6:12pm
Looks big - what weight are you expecting it to work well with?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 17 May 20 at 6:29pm
It is not that big really .... 4.25m overall with beam of 1.58m.  (so approx 14' long) The development sail in the photos is approx 9.4m but the hull is very easily driven.  Itt should be a reasonable weight carrier (..a wide range was planned for anyway) but this will be driven by sail area, which can be varied of course, as much as anything.   It is a lowish rocker one.   I'm just over 80kg myself but the hull is not that extreme and I would guess it should be good (ie still 'working' well) up to 95+kg with this area of sail.  We have other sails to try in due course including 8.8m and 10.4m


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 May 20 at 7:30pm
Must be trick of the camera.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 May 20 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by Neptune

It looked like a good start for the few minutes I watched. A powerful looking boat that’s going to take some strong hiking to get the potential from it so that deck shape and toe strap positions will be critical.


Whereas a trapeze would make for a more pleasant sail, and plug a yawning great hole in the market for an easy single handed light(ish) trap boat. That would be the logical thing, but there's no place for logic in this game, lets just bung another same old, same old, into a crowded market of same olds...

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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 18 May 20 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Neptune

It looked like a good start for the few minutes I watched. A powerful looking boat that’s going to take some strong hiking to get the potential from it so that deck shape and toe strap positions will be critical.


Whereas a trapeze would make for a more pleasant sail, and plug a yawning great hole in the market for an easy single handed light(ish) trap boat. That would be the logical thing, but there's no place for logic in this game, lets just bung another same old, same old, into a crowded market of same olds...

As I frequently post sort PN by numbers of returns in the top 25 there is only one trapeze boat, fireball at 22. Not fully representative of all dinghy sailing but does give an insight into what your average Sunday Warriors sail. 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 18 May 20 at 6:10pm
Very nice looking boat. :)




Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 May 20 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by tink


Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Neptune

It looked like a good start for the few minutes I watched. A powerful looking boat that’s going to take some strong hiking to get the potential from it so that deck shape and toe strap positions will be critical.


Whereas a trapeze would make for a more pleasant sail, and plug a yawning great hole in the market for an easy single handed light(ish) trap boat. That would be the logical thing, but there's no place for logic in this game, lets just bung another same old, same old, into a crowded market of same olds...

As I frequently post sort PN by numbers of returns in the top 25 there is only one trapeze boat, fireball at 22. Not fully representative of all dinghy sailing but does give an insight into what your average Sunday Warriors sail. 

So why do you think that is?
It's because nobody builds an easy, trapeze boat, they are all either so heavy you need a crane to lift them and are not competitive on inland water, or ridiculously impossible to sail like the RS600,MPS or RS700, simply put there is no competitive single hand trapeze boat suitable for inland use since the demise of the Vortex.

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Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 18 May 20 at 8:21pm
Because an easy to sail trapeze boat on its own would be dull as dishwater, the vortex only lived on because they put a ridiculous kite on it. The Musto isn’t hard to sail, the 600 neither (never sailed a 700). The Farr you have is the lightweight trapeze boat. If you sail inland it’s more about manoeuvrability, you lose more tacking Something like a 300 or a blaze than you ever gain over An aero or the ilk.

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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 18 May 20 at 8:52pm
Part of the issue is that the venues for clubs that are nice to be members of tend to have waters that are unsuitable for boats with assymetric spinnakers, which seems to be the way to make a boat targeted at performance upwind, interesting to sail downwind.  The other issue with assymetrics is that the production boats that they are on are too heavy, so that they cannot soak downwind, compounding the problem of the limited number of venues where these can sail.

However interesting the Musto skiff appears, I think I would be an absolute liability sailing angles downwind through our crowded harbour.

I did enjoy Luke Patience podcast where he made the case for slower, older classes of boats, which make for a much more interesting tactical experience.

Having said all that, I am a bit of a fan of the Hadron H2 and if I had to foresake one design Solo racing I would be interested in seeing where the Hybrid develops ... the rig looks awesome.


-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 May 20 at 9:28pm
You will never convince him its not a plot to keep old classes in production.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 May 20 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

]Having said all that, I am a bit of a fan of the Hadron H2 and if I had to foresake one design Solo racing I would be interested in seeing where the Hybrid develops ... the rig looks awesome.
Why?
The H2 is a great boat, it's getting traction, albeit slowly but it's getting somewhere, why water it down with something the same but only marginally dfferent? There are lots of great hiking single handers to choose from these days, Even the old munters like the OK are getting a makeover, there are Phantoms, Blaze, D Zero, Aero's, Solutions, Solo's if you must, chucking another in the mix, seems pointless.

-------------
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 18 May 20 at 10:47pm
..... Whereas of course we'd be especially worried by now if GRFi actually liked it ! (Translation: We've watched with continued amusement all the classes he's associated himself with in the last decade.  Yes - an almost solid record of that 'Reverse Midas' gift does come to mind) LOL




Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 19 May 20 at 7:22am
I understand where iGRF is coming from here. There are an ever decreasing number of sailors out there to sell to. There are many existing classes that are attracting good fleets. There are new boats already vying for the middle ground (between the slower traditional classes and the newer performance ones) and to add another one to the mix is going to be difficult. Especially with the price that new boats are, to commit to a new one over one that is already gaining traction is going to be difficult. 

Now I'm not saying that the hybrid is not a good looking prospect, I really like the look (well apart from the length of unsupported toestraps) and I'd love to sail one. But then I'd like to sail a H2 as well and if I had to commit to one, I'm afraid that it already has some traction so it would be the latter.

You can say that it takes a brave decision to launch a completely new class and Mike has tried. I wish him luck with this one I really do. Perhaps this is why companies like Ovington have taken traditional classes and run with updating them rather than launching newer designs (apart from the VX range). There is less risk as there is already a customer base. As well as we might wish otherwise (well iGRF anyway) people are cautious on the whole and they will stick with something that already does the job adequately because it already has a fleet.


-------------
Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 19 May 20 at 8:01am
I cannot speak for the majority iGRF but I think the reason that the focus is on hiking rather than trapezing is that the majority would rather hike. On the lake I sail on the shifts and gusts make hiking dangerous at times! I recall a Farr visiting us for an open and having what looked like a horrid time, in the end he gave up and just hiked because he was swimming three or four times per beat and this is a small pond!! Most people just prefer it, I know you are going to think I am weird but I actually choose the H2 in part because it was such a nice boat to hike and I enjoy doing it and enjoy training specifically to be able to hike harder and longer.

-------------
H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 19 May 20 at 8:31am
Originally posted by H2

On the lake I sail on the shifts and gusts make hiking dangerous at times!

I laugh at your shifts and raise them (in a northerly at our club). But I know exactly what you mean. If I sailed at the coast then I'd want a trapeze boat but on a pond hiking wins every time. That said Chris Hampe in his canoe did sail it around our pond at our Icicle open for a couple of years until even he'd had enough. Stayed upright, mostly.

[TUBE]youtu.be/xEelmn6457Q[/TUBE]


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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 19 May 20 at 9:00am
A decent sized fleet of one design racers is always going to be preferable to me, even if this is not in the perfect boat.  However if that were not available and I had to go handicap racing, I would want to do this in the most fun boat that is appropriate for the water I sail, in which case the number of boats of a class built or number racing would be irrelevant, a beamy sit out singlehander with a challenging rig size would probably be my stead of choice ... I have some scribbles for a "one off" single-hander with smallish wings, self-tacking jib that can be goosewinged and a well for my feet 

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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 19 May 20 at 9:37am
You can say that it takes a brave decision to launch a completely new class .....

That is not a decision that has been, or needs to be, made any time soon !  I sold my interest in building / marketing boats a couple of years back (very thankfully given the current market).   Hybrid is currently just an indulgent bit of pure interest on my part at this time - because I wanted to try some ideas out of interest and do not need an immediate commercial justification to do so.  It is something of a hobby alongside still racing in two other classes !  However you never say 'No' completely and if any builders that may remain in the 'new normal' were interested in something like Hybrid you'd surely not turn them away either ?  But build or launch a new class by myself now ?    No of course not !

 

Though Hybrid might make a cracking entrant in something like GRFi's supposed all comers formula class he's proposed occasionally  .... Smile


Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 19 May 20 at 9:53am
It is easy to take the **** out of iGRF but in this case I think we has got it about right, The market for the lightweight 'modern' singlehander is super crowded with some very good boats indeed; the Aero, D-Zero and H2 between them surely cover most of the bases - for someone wanting this sort of boat any one of these will tick the boxes plus they have the advantage of that all important 'traction'.  But the modern, lightweight trapeze singlehander....now that would be radical and worthy of serious interest. As a 40 year plus Contender sailor, this may seem strange but I never pass up on an opportunity to sing the praises of the Rs600 BUT - at the same time, I would describe it as 'flawed genius'..... so a boat that sits at that sort of positioning could  find a gap in the market...forget the addition of extra sails - a simple, lightweight fun trapeze boat, I'm just amazed that someone hasn't looked at the 600/Contender scene, seen the failings in both and done a modern take that slots in to a gap that exists, rather than trying to jam another boat into a gap that simply isn''t there!

Dougal


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Dougal H


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 19 May 20 at 10:13am

However - is there really demand for ANY new trapeze single hander class (either).  The Musto skiff  is now the de facto 'standard' modern take and the Contender remains a powerful focus for the 'traditionalist'.  As a segment it is still however very very limited in the current world.  Those who buy new boats are also disproportionately 'mature' and many clubs are not ideal for trapeze boats either.... Possible real world 'new' buyers are therefore far less likely to buy an alternative trapeze boat.   It is a particularly interesting segment to address, of course, but perhaps only from a technical point of view for the foreseeable ....

 

Might not stop me from putting a trapeze on Hybrid either at some point - or trying out other possibilities already considered but not yet involved.  That in a nutshell, is the beauty of an ‘off piste’ development like Hybrid.  You learn new stuff all the time - and then revert.



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 May 20 at 10:15am
After returning to dinghies back in 2008 with the Spice, when I decided to buy a singlehander I had some pretty firm ideas as to what I wanted. Amongst them was no kite and no trapeze, 9 years of sailing the Spice had shown me that my skill level was not up to being competitive in a trapeze/assymetric rigged boat and my available time on the water was unlikely to change in the future. Likewise a kite on a singlehander upped the difficulty stakes beyond what I considered I could achieve and be competitive. All else being equal a hiking boat is always going to be more forgiving than a trap boat and a kite is always going to make a boat more difficult to sail, but the handicap is based on both being used so to sail to that handicap you have to be competent at using both kite and wire. 

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 19 May 20 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by maxibuddah


Originally posted by H2

On the lake I sail on the shifts and gusts make hiking dangerous at times!

I laugh at your shifts and raise them (in a northerly at our club). But I know exactly what you mean. If I sailed at the coast then I'd want a trapeze boat but on a pond hiking wins every time. That said Chris Hampe in his canoe did sail it around our pond at our Icicle open for a couple of years until even he'd had enough. Stayed upright, mostly.
[TUBE]youtu.be/xEelmn6457Q[/TUBE]


Very impressive !

Hats off to him


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 19 May 20 at 1:08pm
Cirrus
Wondered why you don't go for the adjustable forestay option like we have on the Phantom?
 It certainly makes it a more usable rig in windy conditions when you have a large sail as your suggesting.


-------------
Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 May 20 at 1:47pm
I wonder why there is a reticense for more classes to support on the fly forestay adjustment, I couldn't imagine racing a board without altering the mast base, never mind raking the rig. It's part of the joy of the Solution that you can at least rake the rig to get you out of jail if the wind gets up. It also facilitates slakening the shrouds so the boom can get back far enough to sail by the lee. It was when I found out it wasn't an option on the Contender which finally reversed my decision, if ever a boat needs adjustability on the raking angle that does. Then I found they don't allow it on my Farr either, really does make you wonder why not, I can't think of any logical reason not to.
In my dreams of racing dinghy perfection a longer sliding mast base track features high on the list ,not that it would help the Farr that much at least not as much as two foot more waterline length.

It's such a drag, if the boat designer doesn't get it wrong the class association will come along and make certain many given designs suck.


PS, I do 'get' why traps don't work on small inland water I'd never consdier the Farr down our lake, but there's a lot of big res's like Grafham, Rutland, Derwent up north (not the lakes), Estuarys, where they might, I'm not advocating it as a sole solution, but it does save your knees and is so much nicer than hiking on long beats, I guess coming to this sport late and taking forever to get to grips with it muddles my thinking,wire comfort is such a panacea for lack of gym time.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 19 May 20 at 3:04pm
No sitting on the side is easiest. Let the sail out and perch. Don't put too much effort into it. 

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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 19 May 20 at 3:33pm
....the adjustable forestay option like we have on the Phantom ... (etc)

Yes they do work on Phantoms and on other classes with similar style sails. Raking seems to work well on lower aspect rigs particularly if the mast is a tad on the stiff side in single-handers.  (eg Solution as well) or have relatively long booms in relation to mast length.  More modern higher aspect sails with reasonable roach and (some) full length battens however permit other depower options that have less potential down-side imo ..   I've got no problem with adjustable forestays personally and never have had when they are right for the class... But then today I also don't have to deal with the odd  'warranty' claim from the customer who somehow 'get things wrong' in the heat of the moment!.  (Stuff happens ...) Some sadly tend to blame the spar supplier when in fact they have really forgotten to support the rig fully in higher winds as they switch from 'depowered and raked' upwind to a hairy offwind leg on a gusty day and/or in waves !   Rake controls rely on the crew to exercise care and appropriate application on every leg ...especially on windy days and without fail and without delay.

BTW when I last enquired about the 'real' sail area of the Phantom from North Sails a way back they said it was really around 11.4- 11.5m  - ie well above the often quoted 9.7m that was derived from the original Fireball main they started with in the 70's.  .  That is a lot more than we are currently testing with Hybrid or even the largest we will be testing at 10.4m...  The underlying aim is to produce something that goes well enough without needing quite as much sail area... but then we could always still try a Phantom rig  on it sometime I guess.




Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 May 20 at 7:08pm
Aaah I get it now, so basically a class association of muppets are basically admitting they are muppets and not capable of sailing their own class so have to mitigate for their muppetry.. Always said Contender sailors were muppets.

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Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 20 May 20 at 8:02am
The H2 has an adjustable forestay, along with the kicker its the control that gets used the most to power up, depower but also to flatten the sail in a drifter. It also has a fully battened sail and a carbon mast and I have not heard of any mast's breaking because the forestay was left off, in fact we regularly sail downwind with the rigging very loose with no issues! So it can easily be done in my experience but probably not with a mast that was not carbon.

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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 May 20 at 9:42am
The H2 has a deck stepped mast with no lowers. if the rig gets too slack it will just fall down. The issue with the Blaze was, I believe, to do with tight lowers and slack shrouds allowing the mast to invert and break where the lowers attach. Breakages were with both the carbon stick and the M7 which is which is generally considered indestructible.

The Class took a sensibly pragmatic approach and banned 'on the water' adjustable rigs following which I believe the problem went away.
 
It might be interesting to see if any other classes with a similar setup have similar problems?


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 20 May 20 at 10:46am

I've dealt with warranty claims for carbon masts sure ... it does happen occasionally.   It even happens to that relatively 'SuperStiff' alloy M7 with some who also 'forget' .... IF you maintain lowers at a regular setting and then rake the mast via forestay you, of course, have to take up the slack as you switch to offwind.  If you don't the lowers hold the bottom of the mast firm but the upper sections are not fully supported offwind by the (still) slack shrouds - the rig pivots at the mast/lowers attachment and goes 'over the front', it inverts and then can easily break.  You can get away with it in lighter conditions but add a gusty 20+kn and maybe a few waves and the odds shorten quickly.

 

You could specify a very strong (usually stiff) carbon stick of course but can also lose much of the benefit from having a carbon one in the first place.  Some makers eventually end up having to do this to still benefit from the 'carbon' marketing label while maintaining a commercially acceptable level of 'durability'.   If you have lowers you have other options  that avoid an over-stiff stick and all that entails.   If you do not have lowers – well the mast is inevitably heavier and stiffer and possibly larger in section all other things being equal  Hence the attraction of alternative de-powering approaches that can minimise risks yet maintain high(er) performance.  One way is to have an (already) raked rig coupled to a sail design that really responds to Cunningham to blade off the roach -  important to get the battening right naturally.  Another very useful one is to look to slacken off the lowers 'on the fly' to allow more regular bend in the lower mast upwind rather than depower via forestay raking  - you get a very similar effect to raking via forestay adjustment but it can be more forgiving in terms of necessary (and timely!) crew input.  In fact I think much of the benefit of raking via forestay actually comes from the fact that this naturally slackens (set) lowers (allowing more mast bend etc) - So why not leave the shrouds and forestay alone and just adjust the lowers ? You do need a stick that is suitable of course ....  As an extra safety feature you can also set up an extra line that runs from the bow forestay fitting to the lowers attachment on the front of the mast.  This can be used to inhibit, or at least provide a maximum limit, on any tendency towards mast inversion.

 

Anyway the point made here is that there are usually more than one way .... 



Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 20 May 20 at 11:27am
Ah - yes the H2 has no lowers which is the difference!

-------------
H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 22 May 20 at 9:46am
Spent another couple of hours late Wednesday afternoon with 'Hybrid'.  All it really needed for comfort was an adjustment of toestraps (now nice and cosy) plus wearing some decent hikers.  We will make changes to the sit-out side deck positon in time but with hikers now it is well down the near future revise 'list'.  Immediate things to try is 1) a tad more rake of the rig plus 1) a switch to a slightly smaller centreboard.  Previous two sessions proved the boat pointed very high as hoped while still keeping pace on but a tad more rake may prove even more effective still.  Need to quickly establish those limits.  Any reduction in drag and weight with a smaller board cannot but help if the overall area really can be reduced - but there is nothing like actually sailing stuff  to prove anything - The original board used in the first two outings was similar but is approx 15% larger in area though the same length overall.

The focus now in summary is to optimise upwind performance as far as reasonably possible before anything else... generally speaking if you get that right initially the rest usually follows....  The sparring partner on Wednesday was interestingly an Icon so an excellent challenge with known and capable up-hill pointing characteristics - longer hull of course though broadly similar under water so it was interesting to see the relative strengths of the two boats.  Breeze was again relatively light and not ever much more than 10 mph - ideal at this stage.  So the few tweaks to sort later today (Friday) and another planned on-water session on Sunday with a slightly higher wind forecast at this point of 13-14mph.  In some ways undertaking this sort of work  without the distraction of formal class racing being available in established classes is good... you can focus on the task at hand and others seem very willing to act as distanced sparring partners .. as they keep a watchful eye on the 'strange new craft'.... Wink     


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 22 May 20 at 10:58am
it sounds like you're having a lot of fun in a lovely looking boat.... FWIW, I would ruin such a beautiful experience commercialising it to all the whims, conflicting desires and short pockets of the dinghy industry!


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 May 20 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

it sounds like you're having a lot of fun in a lovely looking boat.... FWIW, I would ruin such a beautiful experience commercialising it to all the whims, conflicting desires and short pockets of the dinghy industry!


Would or wouldn't?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 25 May 20 at 10:08am
Adjustments to the mast/deck step and a bit more rake seems to work ... plus a bit more slack in the lowers.  This appears to allow the mast to 'work' a bit more upwind.  Sunday was a slight step up in wind strength on the previous sessions and some full-on hiking with a bit of depower was needed on occasion.   The alternative (slightly smaller) centre-board still fully maintained the  upwind performance but things just felt a bit 'better' - difficult to define really but it is about the general 'feel' of a boat.    Still have not tried the other available sails (different areas available) but the justification is to keep that aspect constant for a while yet and keep trying out different rig. settings.   This time the 'stalking horses' included the regular Blazes plus a solitary Aero.  In the full breeze occasionally available the Blazes looked very comfortable - as expected given the wing leverage but 'Hybrid' did not lose out too much.  Offwind they are fairly equal in terms of performance - especially pleasing given the smaller sail area of Hybrid.  Below wind of 10 mph or in lulls Hybrid had an edge and held the Blazes or crept away upwind for more of the time This was also fairly obvious running deep offwind .... But the hull is particularly easily driven and might equally work pretty well with the smaller sail as well- so might try that before too long.  The Aero was limited by the 7m sail used but went well in the gusts.    Next session is planned is Thursday /Friday.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 25 May 20 at 2:09pm
wouldn't!


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 25 May 20 at 3:26pm
wouldn't!

I assume you refer to the 'smaller sail' comment.  I/we are trying out all reasonable options to find out where the performance envelope starts and ends and assess everything along the way.  The 'modern' approach anyway is to allow/use multiple sails .. to suit different helms and/or in different conditons.  Now at my weight I'm unlikely to use much less than the 9.4m sail (used thus far) too frequently inland... but at a true 20+kn or anything like that I'd bet now you would get round a typical course as quick or quicker in Hybrid with less area (and in more control !) Wink 


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 26 May 20 at 6:37pm
Haha - no Mike.... I applaud your approach: efficiency over pure horsepower.

My 'wouldn't' is in reference to ruining what sounds like a fun personal endeavour with commercial aspiration.

Keep the photos, and if you can, vids, flowing.... lovly looking boat.


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 27 May 20 at 10:18am
No Problem TT .... But I'm simply after straightforward efficiency via the concepts being tested - which is why Hybrid was produced.  Being able to 'do the same things' with a smaller sail plan stretches the higher wind range capability (wihout needing to be super-human !).  Then you still have the option of adding area back or in addition and really fly.  Pursuing highest efficiency goals also means you need less leverage all other things being equal.... so not quite as wide maybe, no complex wing / trapeze / sliding seat which also can obviously keep the overall weight down - a virtuous circle of benefits.   My view is many commercial projects are under real financial pressure and some launch far too early with sub-optimised elements - often seen in foils and rigs offered.  There is absolutely no time or commercial pressure with Hybrid at the moment ....  I rest my case !  Wink


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 May 20 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

No Problem TT ....   There is absolutely no time or commercial pressure or market for Hybrid at the moment ....  I rest my case !  Wink


FTFY

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 27 May 20 at 6:40pm
I'm not sure that even GRFi could so completely trash the current dinghy market...  But if he wants bragging rights I guess best to humour him as ever  .. So 'Yes of course - whatever' !!    LOL


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 May 20 at 7:01pm
Well many a true word spoken in jest, our local dinghy market is unlikely to recover post Covid, we've effectively lost 1 club and the other aint exactly sprinting to get racing going again, I'm going to have to halve my little fleet am even considering flogging the lot. Once you get out of the habit....

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 May 20 at 8:09pm
Griff, I am in same boat, I sold all my boats, not sure what I am going to do at the moment, nothing moving by me yet, sorry to be so negative.
Cirrus, enjoying your thread.

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Robert


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 28 May 20 at 7:59am
   
Cirrus 
Thank you for your detailed explanation of why you haven't gone for the raking rig option.

In response to the negativity

Well I am fortunate to be really enjoying my sailing on the Solent. The Phantom is a joy to sail and after a few tweaks sorting mistakes I made in the fit out as below and everything is working well.
Added some extra bungy so the toe straps now sit up and untangled a control line I got wrong.
Shortened the main strop which could be to long.
I used to have 2 boats but decided to concentrate on one, maybe others should try it rather than having a fleet they don't sail very much.





-------------
Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 28 May 20 at 8:27am
Originally posted by iGRF

Once you get out of the habit....

ain't that the truth - every year that passes throws itself another reason to push buying a boat down the priority list.

last year was work, the one before that 'settling in'.... this year, well no explanation needed.

no doubt next summer will be f**ked by the economic fall out, we're already trading at 50% in a primary industry, christ knows how the rest are fairing.


Posted By: andy h
Date Posted: 28 May 20 at 9:54am
I think the Icon could have the makings of a nice large single hander regardless of whether it has any commercial potential.  One thing I've never liked with my NS14 is having combined helm and crew toestraps.  You never really feel locked in to the boat when it's wavy breezy reaching.  A 6' helm with a 4'6" crew is never going to get a good compromise on the length either, not that that's going to be an issue singlehanded.  Have you considered shorter toestraps with an anchorage in the cockpit floor beneath the invisible thwart?

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Europe AUS53 & FF 3615
National 12 3344, Europe 397 and Mirror 53962 all gone with regret


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 28 May 20 at 11:58am
Fact is , there are plenty of reasons not to sail, always have been always will be. However if you want to sail there’s always a way. You either do it or not.



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