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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lasers
    Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by Demelza

I think you are missing out some of the history behind the debacle. The Australian builder was producing a boat that was judged to be 'faster'. Foul play was suspected and on investigation the boats were found to be stiffer because they were constructed with addition fibreglass mat and did not thus comply with the builders manual. LP complained to the ILCA that these boats should be ruled out of class. This would effected a few thousand boats so the ILCA did nothing apart from demand to inspect LP premise to check on their boats. Not surprisingly Rastagar got the hump and refused. ILCA 's response was to refuse to license LP boats. 
Imo a stupid thing to do before they had any alternative builder appointed for Europe.  

Also I believe it was not LP but the ILCA that approached an Australian company to trial new rigs. This was instigated, without any reference to the membership, by the yanks who took over the ILCA. Two of whom declared publicly that the days of white sails on the Laser must pass.   
 

Conveniently dodging the upped royalties issue.

"Not surprisingly" I beg to differ - in the circumstance you set-out, I'd have thought having inspectors in was absolutely the thing to do. Unless there was something to hide (crap QA, methods, other infractions?)




 
Great book for Club Sailors here
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by fab100

.....

Er, but is it? There's no external QA, no commitment to the build-manual that the official builders work to, no royalties paid (for what was it, ten years?). It's as genuine as a knock off "Gucci" handbag or "Rolex" watch bought in a Souk. So that would be a "no" then.

As far as I am concerned, someone who is granted a virtual monopoly on a popular, profitable product, but does not pay the monopoly grantor their (small per boat) dues for a decade is beneath contempt. And by dint of not paying the royalties, they cannot be 'genuine'.

Oh, and even before LP lost their build rights, my boat-park neighbour, who has bought at least 2 200+ sail number Lasers found that the quality was awful, with mast rake several inches different for instance. So not one-design by any stretch
 




Whole bunch of issues here.
The shape of the boat is out of any copyright. So anyone can build one now. It's like anyone can make spares for the Austin Maxi. The quality issues are partly a  matter of history, modern production is so much better than the 70s, we now expect identical rake etc, while slapping boats together 70s style, you got what you got. If you read the early books about Laser sailing, you may find hints about choosing a 'good' boat, because build tolerances and processes were different back then. These days it's much easier for the likes of Ovi to churn out very consistent product.

The fact that some LP built Lasers were sold as class legal boats with quality issues is not unique to LP. Other SMOD makers have sold boats not as good asother examples of the class. Heavy ones, leaky ones. No need to name names. The situation before LP stopped labelling their product as a  WS endored International Laser is a different situation to today and I'm not defending that.
But it's history. Today the 'laser' in the UK has forked into the ILCA and the LP Laser.


. The LP Laser is exactly what you say it is, just a plastic laser shaped boat outside of WS/ILCA  or other external QC. Because that build manual/QC process is what you don't get for £4k and you don't get a little plaque. What you do get is the Laser trademark. The four grand Laser suffers from the issue of many other SMODs, you're not buying to an agreed spec, like buying an RS boat, there's no minimum weight for it to be compared with, next year they might sell lighter boats or different shaped ones.Doesn't matter if you're buying a fleet for a beach operation or something.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:15pm
I think he's gone
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by Demelza

I think you are missing out some of the history behind the debacle. The Australian builder was producing a boat that was judged to be 'faster'.


Straight out of the Laser Performance spin book, and basically nonsense. To my mind either shill or useful idiot, which comes to the same thing.

Remember its a lesson of the internet that there is no position, no matter how daft, that you can't find someone who will apparently genuinely argue for it.


Edited by JimC - 03 Feb 22 at 6:09pm
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:31pm
For me the repeated refusal to categorically deny any LPE connection set the spider sense twitching. If one is a genuine contributor and asked the question then a straight forward denial is not difficult.
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by Demelza

......

Also I believe it was not LP but the ILCA that approached an Australian company to trial new rigs. This was instigated, without any reference to the membership, by the yanks who took over the ILCA. Two of whom declared publicly that the days of white sails on the Laser must pass.   
 






Tell me a class association which hasn't had a faction wanting to upgrade the rig at some point in its history?

It's a dilemma many classes have faced, either get overtaken by more modern classes or create a cost for existing boats to update.If a CA ia any sort of democratic collection of owners, there will likely be a range of opinion.
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NicolaJayne View Drop Down
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Posts: 109 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NicolaJayne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by eric_c

Originally posted by NicolaJayne

Originally posted by Demelza

Correction; I should have said 'I only question where the ILCA is taking the class' Although unfortunately UKLA is following in the same direction.
 


you really  are not  doing anything to dismiss   the  assertion that you are a Shill for LP, attempting to astroturf about their  counterfeit product.  


To call it a 'counterfeit product' implies not understanding that it's the WS plaque and what irepresents which IS THE PRODUCT. It is where a big slice of the value is.

The plaque-less Laser is a perfectly genuine product, but it's just a mediocre boat designed down to a price a long time ago.


if it is not built to  , and approved  as, meeting the Specifications of the class it is counterfeit 

signifant numbers of 'counterfeit'  products in a variety of sectors are built  on the same lines   as the licence holder  builds  their , they are QA fails , they are 'overruns' etc ...  the difference is LP no longer hold a legitimate contract  to build  the boat
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:58pm
Originally posted by Demelza

Originally posted by Grumpycat

Originally posted by Demelza

Stick to the subject. if you want to discus Kayaks do it somewhere else !!

You have no idea how threads on forums work do you ? Doesn’t Mr Rasty let you play with the interweb much ?  Wink

If you ready want publicly for LP Lasers, just buy an advertisement.  LOL

You are well named. For information after sailing lasers for years I sold my 20plus Laser as must have expensive improvements were, and still are, coming thick and fast and it was not worth keeping up for the average club sailor.  I have absolutely no axe to grind for LP. I only question where the UKLA are taking the class and the the cost of ILCA boats as opposed to an LP Laser which would entirely suit the average club sailor.  

You are so funny , your posts are straight out on the LP spin book and are utter tosh , as anyone that has followed the Laser/ILCA story knows. 
Rasty should really pay more , at least he would get a better quality sock puppet.lol
The bottom line is , if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck . This definitely makes you a LP sock puppet .  LOL LOL



Edited by Grumpycat - 03 Feb 22 at 5:59pm
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by NicolaJayne

.....

if it is not built to  , and approved  as, meeting the Specifications of the class it is counterfeit 

signifant numbers of 'counterfeit'  products in a variety of sectors are built  on the same lines   as the licence holder  builds  their , they are QA fails , they are 'overruns' etc ...  the difference is LP no longer hold a legitimate contract  to build  the boat


The word counterfeit can have different interpretations, including legal meaning, in different situations, but generally for goods to be counterfeit, there has to be a deception. If LP sells me a Laser and I know it's not an ILCA, there is no deception. AIUI, LP require no contract with ILCA or anyone else to sell Laser dinghies in the UK. Their legitimate contract is with the buyer only. You could be on dodgy ground implying they are breaking a law here. In the UK, counterfeit in this context is a criminal offence. Arguing over license deals is a civil matter.

ILCA and WS are not statutory bodies who make laws applying to everyone, they are essentially
private organisations who make their own rules applying to their members. They are really not part of the picture if somebody wants to buy a Laser from LP.

There may be more issues with people selling on Lasers as International Lasers as time goes on. If you're buying a used boat you need to check the plaque. But when these boats are older like mine, will the plaques have worn and faded like mine?
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tink View Drop Down
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Posts: 789 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Demelza

I think you are missing out some of the history behind the debacle. The Australian builder was producing a boat that was judged to be 'faster'.


Straight out of the Laser Performance spin book, and basically nonsense. To my mind either shill or useful idiot, which comes to the same thing.

Remember its a lesson of the internet that there is no position, no matter how daft, that you can't find someone who will apparently genuinely argue for it.

I have listened to most of the Laser Podcasts, on a few occasions in the quick question round Lilly asks Olympians which Lasers are the best, they all say Australian ones and say they are stiffer and have better mast rake. 
Tink
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http://proasail.blogspot.com
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