Lasers
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13892
Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 1:39pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Lasers
Posted By: Demelza
Subject: Lasers
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 1:07pm
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Prior to the debacle regarding Lasers being rebadged as ILCA's and what is considered as class legal, a large number of clubs accepted so called replica sails for club racing. Now that a Laser, that is identical to an IlCA, can be purchased for £thousands less, are clubs accepting the Laser for club and open meeting racing ?
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Replies:
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 1:25pm
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Would be surprised if there were many clubs that would turn one away, perhaps one with a large fleet of ILCA legal Lasers and ILCA'S might. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 1:31pm
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As far as club racing is concerned it will depend on each individual club's policy. For open events supported by the UK Laser Association only class legal equipment is accepted so no replica sails or replica hulls - even if they are branded by Laser Performance. I think in practice in recent years most new Lasers/ILCA have been bought by folk who wish to do open events.
There's a paper here from ILCA covering what's class legal. https://ilca.uk/s/Verification-of-Class-Legal-Equipment-for-Laser-Class-Competitions-8-JUL-2020.pdf |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 4:40pm
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Think the cut off point for class legal LP boat is about 215*** . To be honest I smell the slight whiff of LP sock puppet with this thread. Apologies to the OP if this is not the case . ------------- |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 4:43pm
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It's not just 'IlCA' events you have to consider, but also any regatta such as Chichester Harbour Federation Week, where there is what used to be called 'class racing for Lasers'. In the past they have DSQ'd people for replica sails one year after tolerating them the year before. Other regattas take a different view. Don't forget that if people get picky, one essential class legal item is a helm who's a member of ILCA.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 4:54pm
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We were having a Laser conversation on sunday morning on yet another winter windless sunday, anyway is it true you can buy one for around 4 grand and with a carbon mast?
Not just crabon top, seems a good deal to me, as for paying a blind bit of notice to the class bollox I've never seen it adhered to in my entire time in dinghy world. In fact only a couple of them appear to have the correct sail and that was more by error than judgement. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 5:04pm
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Its all down to the NOR. If the NOR says Laser/ILCA the boats need to be in compliance with class rules, same as any other class. If the NOR says not-quite-Lasers are acceptable then that's fine.
If you read the rules the class membership requirement only applies to CA sanctioned events, so not club racing or the majority of multi class open events. |
Posted By: Demelza
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 5:27pm
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I would think it difficult for clubs that allow replica sails for club racing not accept a current Laser produced by LP. I would not expect a club to refuse entry for a Laser at an open event or ask for evidence of UKLA membership. They never have in the past and would rather have the entry to their event. This could be expected at the less popular qualifier and national level events. To call a LP Laser a 'replica' is a misnomer and somewhat ironic as they produced the original boat, surely the Ovington ILCA is the replica. Interesting scenario, buy the cheaper Laser for club sailing and an ILCA sail for open events together with UKLA membership. You could choose any relevant sail number. You could even add a copy hull plaque!! |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 6:19pm
The smell of LP sock puppet has suddenly got a lot stronger  ------------- |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 6:28pm
Second post and suggesting putting bogus stickers on a LP hull  ------------- Robert |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 6:53pm
Of course they would. We refused entry for replica sails. Its not a question of refusing entry - a boat that doesn't measure simply isn't eligible to race. End of.
No, you're quite wrong. The original builder was Performance Sailcraft. They went bust years ago, 70s or maybe 80s. I believe the most recent authorised builder in Europe was Laser Performance Europe Ltd. That company is moribund and will probably go bust because they owe millions to Bruce Kirby's heirs for trademark violations, breaking contracts etc. They built boats in the UK. The boats currently being marketed with the Laser Trademark are being built by Laser Performance LLC, who were probably never an authorised International Laser builder, and are being built in a factory in Portugal that has never been approved by the ILCA or had any of their products checked out. They have pretty much nothing to do with the International Laser class except that they license the trademark 'Laser'. Replica seems entirely fair and accurate. | |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 7:07pm
And what happens when someone realises the 'Laser' is physically different to the ILCA-endorsed boat? Which is going to happen, due to building tolerances. Do we know whether the 'Laser' is still built to the 'build manual'? If there is no ILCA/World Sailing QA process, then you can't really assume it's the same. Why not allow people to mould their own hulls? At the end of the day, essentially ILCA is a bunch of people who race boats, and they decide what boats are eligible. Likewise 'The Laser Class' can invite whatever boats they like to race in their class. Or anyone can race in other races where the NoR makes them eligible. The issue at the moment is scarcity of used boats, especially at sensible prices. Boats which would have been £1500 five years ago are now over 2 grand for a 20 year old boat that's probably had a hard life. When you want to upgrade from that level, the £4k new boat starts to look appealing. Bearing in mind that most used boats under £3k need a £600 upper mast upgrade. The question is, where will future values go? If used boats drop back to where you'd have projected 5 years ago, then that's a big hit for the casual club sailor. If you don't want the ILCA open meeting circuit and all that, then there is a lot to be said for buying something else entirely. Or putting a new replica sail on a 25year old boat and enjoying some racing.
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 7:32pm
'Replica' is quite a loaded word. If you type 'define replica' into your favourite search engine, you will get several definitions. Ranging from implying exact copies to including scale models. You could say that all 200-odd thousand boats are literally replicas of Kirby's original. It's not helpful, it allows people put whatever interpretation on the word which suits them. I don't know what the best word is, it's more like a software 'fork' where something abandons commonality with its precursors and becomes a separate product? Bearing in mind the 'product' is as much the racing as the lump of plastic.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 7:52pm
Maybe, but its exactly the same usage as has been used for 3rd party sails in recent years. Much more loaded words are available! |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 7:57pm
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Topper Byte ? Yamaha Hopper ? XL ? Not that cut and dried. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: john80
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 8:57pm
| The whole idea that a laser is worth about 6k new is what I can't get my head round. This applies to all boats. We seem to be taking the idea that they are a luxury item to higher heights with every year. It's not very accessible for those who are not currently in the game which leads to the issue where sailing may well not sustain itself. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 9:15pm
| Raking over old mud. |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 9:38pm
You try building them for significantly less. For sure a no-name workshop can knock out something vaguely similar for maybe £3k, but you have to sell quite a few to pay the rent. Have you ever designed a product, got it to manufacture and seen it through production? It's somewhere between tough and pointless unless you can either charge £50k a go or sell thousands. The issue with sailing is more about people wanting new stuff all the time, what stops people from buying an old boat for a three figure sum and club racing against similar? The value in a £6k laser is buying into an ecosystem of level racing at international standard. If you don't value that, buy something else. Much as I don't like the Laser as a boat, if you can buy one for £6k, race it for 3 years and sell it for £4k, in that time you have dozens of quality events to go to and it is great value. It Is Not Just The Lump Of Plastic. Most other classes, you get big depreciation and far fewer events.
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 9:45pm
Lots of 'words ' are available, quantities of them from people with no real interest in one design or 'level' racing, mostly adding no value.
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Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 10:58pm
Allowing for inflation they are no more expensive than they ever have been. In 1970 a Ford cortina was about £950 and a Laser was about £350/£400. A comparable Ford model today is at least £23000 and even the cheapest Ford is about £18000. I don’t really see what’s changed
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Feb 22 at 12:28am
Not that difficult if production were taken offshore, bear in mind I was quickly prevented from importing Laser sails by your little industry 'cartel', landing them here for $25.0 US, not so long ago, and those hulls,no more than $300 a pop, maximum, the rest of the bits? $50.00 all you need are sensible MOQ's (minimum order quantitys) probably as low as 1-200 pcs. Fact is y'all have all been soaked for years by probably the biggest margin product in the business, those moulds must have been homologated twenty times over. I don't doubt that Ovis costs are higher, but 6 grand? They're having a ball or their order book is way too thin. Nobody has answered the mast question is it all carbon now or not, makes a big difference to cost I imagine? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Feb 22 at 7:07am
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Constantly looking to reduce costs by going for offshore production, well, thats worked out really well, because we can do something, doesn't mean we have to. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Feb 22 at 9:12am
Introducing the ILWS (International Laser Walmart Special)  ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Feb 22 at 9:59am
Finest cardboard and monkey metal  introducing the 'Lotus' it's not a ILCA  ------------- Robert |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Feb 22 at 10:06am
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So what are you saying you wouldn't want an entry level Laser for £1500?
No don't tell me, it might devalue your Class Association boat. And there we have it in a nutshell the stupidity of a Class lead sport denying mass entry because of petty protectionism, whilst wondering why their sport is dying? Can't really write this stuff really can you, nor make it up? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 01 Feb 22 at 11:03am
AIUI, you can get a carbon lower mast for the radial rig. If you want to argue about the economics of cheap boats, the Laser is not the best place to start, because what you're actually buying with a Laser is a slice of the World Sailing overheads, the ability to charter boats for champioships, a whole load of costs beyond the hardware. I don't believe either Topper or Laser did very well out of other designs. The capital cost of a Laser at over six grand really isn't bad when you can be reasonably sure of getting good money for it after 5 years. Compares pretty well with say a racing pushbike. Personally I am put off buying a new boat, because I will be racing off a beach where the boat is sure to get some knocks. I don't need a brand new boat for my level of ability and commitment, a good ten year old one would give me no excuse for not winning in our fleet. That's what One Design Racing is all about. I don't actually want to chequebook my way to having the best boat, 'as good as any of the others' will do. If you can actually contribute anything regarding cheap things that float, I'm in the market for a two person sit on kayak. Must be a fair market for those, but at £600 upwards for a rotomoulding, they look poor value to me. Used ones even worse value with abrasions and UV damage.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Feb 22 at 12:20pm
Regretably no longer, my days of kayaks are thankfully well and truly behind me, if you can find a 2nd hand Point 65 'Tequila' I think it was called, they were fair value when I was distributing them, and have the bonus of conversion from single to double hander, but I guess like everything else of late they're exploring astronomy in pricing these days. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Feb 22 at 1:05pm
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https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Two-Person-Kayak-New-2-man-sit-on-top-kayak-with-seats-and-paddles-/115227591714?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0 ------------- Robert |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Feb 22 at 1:30pm
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I have got the 'Mojito' well made French sit on top, OK for off the beach stuff, long distance, no way, it doesn't glide, the second you stop paddling, it's has though you are trailing a net. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 12:44pm
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 12:58pm
Thanks for that. I spotted the 'Gul' logo and searched for reviews online. I had no idea they were in the plastic kayak game. Found the same thing for £350 or so at Gul's 'outlet'. Seems more like it! So I've ordered one.Only £6 for delivery too. Unfortunately a lot of reviews say Gul has gone downhill in terms of customer service having been taken over? The website doesn't make it clear whether paddles are included which is kind of a sign that whoever did the web page isn't a boating person. Ordred a cheap wetsuit whie I was at it.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 1:21pm
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That's a good deal. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 2:00pm
Gul sadly is no more, it's just used by is it Mike Ashley Sport Direct? Whatever, just badge marketing for cheap Chinese products, which doesn't really matter in the plastic goat boat market they're not real things in terms of performance, just leisure pastime items. A sad end to a once good Brit Brand, ironic, I remember selling their wetsuits for £150 quid at the London Boat show in 1978-9 as we were switching Racing Sailboats over to London Windsurfing Centre. So the wetsuit was 150 quid, a Laser was around 600 quid then and you can still buy a wetsuit for that sort of money, yet the Laser? Bringing us nicely back on topic. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 2:32pm
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Since '78, the RPI has gone from 200 to 1200, but beer has gone from 30p a pint to about 4 quid? I don't know what my Dad earned in '78 but a new Laser was not something even contemplated.Only new boat in our family was a GRP kayak for my younger sister, which I think she still has. Doubt a LLPE hull will last 40 years somehow. Much as I dislike many features of the Laser, many people have attempted to build better boats for less money and produced things which are IMHO mostly worse. In the late 70s, wetsuits were still a luxury for many inland sailors, shorts and a 'waterproof' overall with a beer towel on the backside was the norm. |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 2:37pm
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 3:06pm
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I went and had a look, that small flying fish kayak looks OK for the kids 160 quid, seat and paddle. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Demelza
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 3:48pm
| Stick to the subject. if you want to discus Kayaks do it somewhere else !! |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 3:51pm
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Sticking to the topic on Y&Y forums....yeah good luck with that ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 3:56pm
The subject was dead and buried in about 4 posts, as soon as you suggested fake plaques. Be grateful people are still posting under the heading, so you might get someone new finding it. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 4:16pm
Found this scrabbling round my office looking for something else, Laser advert in Dinghy & Boardsailing June 1980, gone up a bit since 77 when I bought my first windsurfer for about £475 and I'm sure the Laser was about 650, but inflation back in the late seventys was rampant.
 ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 5:16pm
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Now there’s a blast from the past, little boxes in adverts you would cut out, fill in and send off. A magazine that is very missed. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 6:14pm
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They sold 14,000 Lasers in 78 and 2000 a year these days, worldwide. I'd guess they were sold in fewer countries in 78? So these days there's a lot less boats sold to support a worldwide network of retailers.It's a harsh fact of retail that however little the goods cost wholesale, you have to sell quite a lot to pay the salaries, commercial rates, rent and all that stuff. 2000 Lasers at £6k a go is £12million worldwide retail turnover. One UK bicycle retailer has a turnover of £300M. Even Lasers are a little cottage industry compared to other sports. It would be interesting to know how many £4k non-ilca Lasers are being sold. I guess many will go to beach operators and such? |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 7:15pm
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Hi Demelza, sincerest apologies for drifting your thread. Thread drifting occurs due to being reminded of something, sometimes if its a thread of Griffs, posters will drift to tease him ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 7:24pm
You have no idea how threads on forums work do you ? Doesn’t Mr Rasty let you play with the interweb much ? If you ready want publicly for LP Lasers, just buy an advertisement. ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 7:26pm
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Quite what https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/profiles/4RpkDBvRjg90cB0qRQ4QwP2/demelza-poldark" rel="nofollow - Demelza is interested in Lasers for unless like our mackerel fleet, she's thinking of strengthening the Pilchard fleet.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 7:40pm
Griff, if I mention 'Lasers' in a post it won't be drifting the thread will it  you have got a cheek rubbishing 'Gul' for selling cheap Chinese rubbish, when previously you got quite shouty  because several of us suggested you could keep your out sourced rubbish 'Lasers' for £1500 for a starter boat 
------------- Robert |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 9:23pm
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https://www.laserperformance.global/collections/cartoppable-boats/products/laser-race ------------- Robert |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Feb 22 at 11:54pm
I think you're becoming confused again, best get matron to up your dose, or stop spitting out your medication. Gul is no longer a company in it's own right it is now just another brand name bought up by Sports direct, like Head the tennis racquet brand. You won't find it being sold anywhere else or a Gul customer service department. Laser on the other hand still functions as it always has albeit delinquently, but essentially the item produced is still basically the same, my point being it could be made cheaper offshore, but that will never be allowed to happen because of the inteference of its status as a 'Class' a bit like my awful Contender, not being permitted to be brought down to weight for similar reasons. I never shout, not here, not at crew, not even at the breadknife and least of all at or via a keyboard at poor unfortunates exposed to my worse failing. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Demelza
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 8:44am
Point taken
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Posted By: Demelza
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 9:00am
You are well named. For information after sailing lasers for years I sold my 20plus Laser as must have expensive improvements were, and still are, coming thick and fast and it was not worth keeping up for the average club sailor. I have absolutely no axe to grind for LP. I only question where the UKLA are taking the class and the the cost of ILCA boats as opposed to an LP Laser which would entirely suit the average club sailor.
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 10:11am
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In my experience, average club sailors very rarely buy new boats. Our problem is the lack of decent secondhand boats. The Ovingtom Laser is great value for anyone who is going to sail it at squad or open meeting level, the cost of owning it for say 3 years will be small compared to spending on travel, entry fees etc. We need to see some of those boats feeding into the used market. If the LP Laser was the only thing on the market, in due course they could up the price to 'what the market will bear' Just as lots of canoe retailers will charge you twice what I paid. The lack of secondhand Lasers is maybe comparable to the used vehicle market at the moment.. we got used to 'the way things are' for decades, then something broke the system. |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 10:37am
If Rastagar had actually played by the rules, paid the royalties and let someone check he was building the boats properly and consistently (it is an Olympic class after all) the whole sorry mess would not have occurred. And wasn't it LP who started proposing a totally new, different carbon/mylar rig? The carbon top section is working out cheaper than the ally ones that the top sailors were bending permanently in no time at all. Who wants to buy 5 top sections a year? No performance gain so club sailors not impacted. If you're working from a base of fully amortised, sunk production set-up costs, don't (wrongly) pay royalties or ISAF fees, don't invest in the class or provide support, can totally ignore QA and build standards, you probably can, in the short term, bang ‘em out cheap and still make a cash profit. You can’t have it both ways - the class got where it is as a strict SMOD, same for everyone. But if you want to blame something for cost differentials (if there are any, look at new Aero prices) you’re barking up the wrong tree. The issue there is the pact-with-the-devil that is Olympic class status. ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 11:29am
Perhaps its just the clubs I visit but the boat park is normally full of Lasers that have not been sailed for years; there must be thousands or perhaps 10s of thousands that were not sailed last year so why do people keep paying club fees rather than sell them on? Never worked that one out ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 11:45am
Maybe without olympic status the wheels would have come off a few years sooner? Who knows? At least the Laser saved some other class from the Olympic farce? 'The issue' here is that most of the people who 'have an issue' with the situtation are not the people putting their credit cards on the line to buy a new Laser or ILCA. The committed ILCA sailor does not have an issue, they have 'Quality' new boats available at a price comparable to an *ero. They have the tightly controlled OD racing they've bought into. They have the worldwide infrastructure which other classes don't. I have an issue with not being able to upgrade my boat to a less clapped out one, but alas, it's an issue I'm vaguely willing to spend £2k on, not £5k, i.e. I want a boat worth about £3k as an upgrade, not a £6k one. Likewise my boat is not for sale, so someone wanting a usable boat for a grand is out of luck. Many of the familiar voices on this subject have no skin in the game at all.
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 11:56am
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It's fairly irrelevant whether your local club will let you race your LP Laser in the ILCA fleet, if you're willing and able to spend £4k on your sailing, you'd be better off investing in your skills, which means getting out of your small pond and sailing open events, training events, a nationals or something. Then you will understand the value in the 'class system'. I fancy doing a few Masters' events or something, kind of a last ditch attempt to learn what I can before getting a bus pass and a Beneteau.... |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 12:02pm
Me too. My Laser is the equivalent of a taxi that's done 500,000 miles (I've worn thru the gelcoat on the gunwale edge where you sit out, for instance). But its not just lasers, look on apollo duck or FB dinghies and bits for sale and there's a very little for sale in any class considering how many boats are sitting in boat parks totally unused. But at the same time, those that are for sale second hand are at prices similar to 3-4 years ago, whereas the cost of new has risen 30% to 50%. You'd expect a lack of supply to increase prices but that does not seem to be the case. It's a weird market, but we are in weird times I suppose. And don't get me going on a road base now being £850+, not £350. A trolley alone for the 100 is now £500 ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 12:14pm
Separate issue really. Understand a few individuals who own those boats and you'll maybe find it's quite diverse You've got the 'nth' boat syndrome, where people keep a Laser in case they want to sail but have no crew. A Laser only devalues by a few hundred a year worst case. A lot of people intend to sail but don't get out much, even without pandemics. A lot of people find social value in their club, with or without the sailing. Then there's all the hopeful dads who keep the Laser hoping the kids will sail it. Some people are happy to bung £50 extra to their club to have a boat at the back of the field, it's money to their club which they don't resent.Also inertia is a very powerful thing, I've got various other toys I could probably sell but haven't made the break. The world is full of bicycles, classic cars, motorbikes and god knows what else that people have bought but rarely use. How many people fail to get value for money out of bigger things like yachts or campervans or holiday homes?
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Posted By: Demelza
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 12:34pm
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Posted By: Demelza
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 12:43pm
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Correction; I should have said 'I only question where the ILCA is taking the class' Although unfortunately UKLA is following in the same direction. |
Posted By: Mark Aged 42
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 12:51pm
| The other issue with the old Lasers at the back of the boat park is that they are essentially money pits and are therefore not part of the second hand boat market. Even for free, they will probably need a new cover, new trolley wheels, a new sail (these boats inevitably only have a blown out standard rig) and a better dagger board. If they need XD kit as well, then better to buy a regularly sailed boat. |
Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 2:16pm
you really are not doing anything to dismiss the assertion that you are a Shill for LP, attempting to astroturf about their counterfeit product. |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 2:28pm
As I see it, ILCA isn't taking the class anywhere. It is exactly where it wants to be. Give or take incremental updates like the Carbon radial mast, it's sticking to what it does best. Strict OD with backward compatibility to legacy boats. Other parts of the world are served by other manufacturers, in Australia and Japan. Nothing has fundamentally changed with those factories' relationship with the CA or WS. UKLA is part and parcel of ILCA, fully signed up to the same ethos, UKLA has no significant difference of opinion with ILCA, over the years the UK has probably had a lot of input to ILCA? I'd maybe criticise the time it's taken to appoint new builders, but there's been a pandemic and the legal system and 'World-anything' politics don't move quickly. That's probably not been great for some serious There is no upside for the class in chaiging their rules to accommodate anyone, especially the companies in question. Nobody would benefit from boats coming into high level racing without the QA in place to prove they are on level basis with boats from Japan or Aus. £4k is a lot of money for a boat that turns out slightly slow and no Laser sailor with any self respect wants to be accused of having a faster boat. You can get all that in other classes (including a lot of SMODs). If you don't like the Laser situation, you have a world of alternatives. Let's face it, its only real asset is it's extreme OD nature and history. As boat it is a cheap thing from 50 years ago with no single part of it actually fit for the 21st century. I can't think of a single part of it which couldn't be done better now. But for level, 'first over the line is the best sailor' racing it's still pretty good.
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 2:42pm
To call it a 'counterfeit product' implies not understanding that it's the WS plaque and what irepresents which IS THE PRODUCT. It is where a big slice of the value is. The plaque-less Laser is a perfectly genuine product, but it's just a mediocre boat designed down to a price a long time ago.
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Posted By: Demelza
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 3:04pm
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:01pm
Er, but is it? There's no external QA, no commitment to the build-manual that the official builders work to, no royalties paid (for what was it, ten years?). It's as genuine as a knock off "Gucci" handbag or "Rolex" watch bought in a Souk. So that would be a "no" then. As far as I am concerned, someone who is granted a virtual monopoly on a popular, profitable product, but does not pay the monopoly grantor their (small per boat) dues for a decade is beneath contempt. And by dint of not paying the royalties, they cannot be 'genuine'. Oh, and even before LP lost their build rights, my boat-park neighbour, who has bought at least 2 200+ sail number Lasers found that the quality was awful, with mast rake several inches different for instance. So not one-design by any stretch ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: Demelza
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:08pm
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I think you are missing out some of the history behind the debacle. The Australian builder was producing a boat that was judged to be 'faster'. Foul play was suspected and on investigation the boats were found to be stiffer because they were constructed with addition fibreglass mat and did not thus comply with the builders manual. LP complained to the ILCA that these boats should be ruled out of class. This would effected a few thousand boats so the ILCA did nothing apart from demand to inspect LP premise to check on their boats. Not surprisingly Rastagar got the hump and refused. ILCA 's response was to refuse to license LP boats. Imo a stupid thing to do before they had any alternative builder appointed for Europe. Also I believe it was not LP but the ILCA that approached an Australian company to trial new rigs. This was instigated, without any reference to the membership, by the yanks who took over the ILCA. Two of whom declared publicly that the days of white sails on the Laser must pass. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:20pm
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AFAIK there are/have been two separate paths of new rig development for the Laser, one sponsored by LPE (the Arc rig) and the other by ILCA (the C5, C6 & C8). ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:20pm
What NJ said ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:24pm
Conveniently dodging the upped royalties issue. "Not surprisingly" I beg to differ - in the circumstance you set-out, I'd have thought having inspectors in was absolutely the thing to do. Unless there was something to hide (crap QA, methods, other infractions?) ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: Demelza
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:25pm
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Final word; I don't have and would not now buy another either an LP or an ILCA. I'd recommend a RS Aero. After years of trying they have finally got it right and the boat is obviously waiting in the wings to take over from the Laser/ILCA as the Olympic single-hander.
Ooh and I'm also in RS's pocket for writing this. Bye. |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:25pm
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:05pm
Whole bunch of issues here. The shape of the boat is out of any copyright. So anyone can build one now. It's like anyone can make spares for the Austin Maxi. The quality issues are partly a matter of history, modern production is so much better than the 70s, we now expect identical rake etc, while slapping boats together 70s style, you got what you got. If you read the early books about Laser sailing, you may find hints about choosing a 'good' boat, because build tolerances and processes were different back then. These days it's much easier for the likes of Ovi to churn out very consistent product. The fact that some LP built Lasers were sold as class legal boats with quality issues is not unique to LP. Other SMOD makers have sold boats not as good asother examples of the class. Heavy ones, leaky ones. No need to name names. The situation before LP stopped labelling their product as a WS endored International Laser is a different situation to today and I'm not defending that. But it's history. Today the 'laser' in the UK has forked into the ILCA and the LP Laser. . The LP Laser is exactly what you say it is, just a plastic laser shaped boat outside of WS/ILCA or other external QC. Because that build manual/QC process is what you don't get for £4k and you don't get a little plaque. What you do get is the Laser trademark. The four grand Laser suffers from the issue of many other SMODs, you're not buying to an agreed spec, like buying an RS boat, there's no minimum weight for it to be compared with, next year they might sell lighter boats or different shaped ones.Doesn't matter if you're buying a fleet for a beach operation or something.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:15pm
I think he's gone  ------------- Robert |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:22pm
Straight out of the Laser Performance spin book, and basically nonsense. To my mind either shill or useful idiot, which comes to the same thing. Remember its a lesson of the internet that there is no position, no matter how daft, that you can't find someone who will apparently genuinely argue for it. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:31pm
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For me the repeated refusal to categorically deny any LPE connection set the spider sense twitching. If one is a genuine contributor and asked the question then a straight forward denial is not difficult. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:32pm
Tell me a class association which hasn't had a faction wanting to upgrade the rig at some point in its history? It's a dilemma many classes have faced, either get overtaken by more modern classes or create a cost for existing boats to update.If a CA ia any sort of democratic collection of owners, there will likely be a range of opinion.
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Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:52pm
if it is not built to , and approved as, meeting the Specifications of the class it is counterfeit signifant numbers of 'counterfeit' products in a variety of sectors are built on the same lines as the licence holder builds their , they are QA fails , they are 'overruns' etc ... the difference is LP no longer hold a legitimate contract to build the boat |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:58pm
You are so funny , your posts are straight out on the LP spin book and are utter tosh , as anyone that has followed the Laser/ILCA story knows. Rasty should really pay more , at least he would get a better quality sock puppet.lol The bottom line is , if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck . This definitely makes you a LP sock puppet . ------------- |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 6:33pm
The word counterfeit can have different interpretations, including legal meaning, in different situations, but generally for goods to be counterfeit, there has to be a deception. If LP sells me a Laser and I know it's not an ILCA, there is no deception. AIUI, LP require no contract with ILCA or anyone else to sell Laser dinghies in the UK. Their legitimate contract is with the buyer only. You could be on dodgy ground implying they are breaking a law here. In the UK, counterfeit in this context is a criminal offence. Arguing over license deals is a civil matter. ILCA and WS are not statutory bodies who make laws applying to everyone, they are essentially private organisations who make their own rules applying to their members. They are really not part of the picture if somebody wants to buy a Laser from LP. There may be more issues with people selling on Lasers as International Lasers as time goes on. If you're buying a used boat you need to check the plaque. But when these boats are older like mine, will the plaques have worn and faded like mine?
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 7:01pm
I have listened to most of the Laser Podcasts, on a few occasions in the quick question round Lilly asks Olympians which Lasers are the best, they all say Australian ones and say they are stiffer and have better mast rake. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 7:32pm
That's a shame, pity, then we can't have anyone on here to make the place interesting can we? Oh and how do you know it's a he, Demelza is Poldarks wife no? I was enjoying that thread, waking up all the dinosaurs with all their axes ready to grind, can't have anyone new, well done troops. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 7:37pm
Checked 'HIS' info, states he is a 'male'  I thought it was you
------------- Robert |
Posted By: deadrock
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 7:42pm
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Some young sailors (or parents) less well-informed than some on this forum may be tempted to buy a new 'Laser' with a view to racing. The recent appearance of new Lasers for sale with 218000+ boat numbers is an added concern. (New ILCAs have reached similar numbers; I already know of one duplicate.) I understand that ILCA-UK has taken steps over the past couple of years to inform and educate the RYA and its Junior classes, whose sailors feed the ILCA4 and ILCA6 classes, to reduce the chance of a youngster turning up at a UKLA Qualifier only to learn that they cannot take part. That would be soul-destroying, and not just for the sailor. We all want to avoid that. Contrary to what some on this forum appear to believe, boats and equipment that are not class-legal are subject to protest at any racing event run anywhere under the RRS, not just class-association events. The canard that it's OK to use illegal kit for club racing has been peddled for many years by retailers of 'replacement' or replica sails & kit, though some are careful to avoid saying that their 'replacement' sails are suitable for racing. If sailing clubs are affiliated to the RYA (and most are), they are bound by the WS regulations, the RRS and, in many cases, by the RYA code of conduct known as the Racing Charter. Under the RRS a club cannot change class rules by NOR without the CA's approval – and you know how likely that is. (In the latest RRS only NORs can change class rules. SIs cannot change class rules under any circumstances; any such SIs are now doubly invalid.) Clubs are therefore not in a position to 'permit' out-of-class Lasers or replacement/replica sails. Moreover, a sailor that enters a boat for racing, knowing that it does not measure, commits a breach of Rule 69.1 (Misconduct). Entering an event with an out-of-class Laser, knowing it is not class-legal, might result in disqualification and a stiff telling-off. Repeated events have more severe penalties. Doing as ‘Demelza’ suggests, disguising a boat with an overlaid false WS plaque, might lead to the perpetrator finding another sport more congenial. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 7:44pm
| What a predictably disappointing end to a thread. This forum really has lost its way. Mark, you should kill the forum off (not just this thread). It is not a good advert for the sport we all love. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 7:45pm
This dates back way before this latest debacle, even I knew about the cheating Aussi b'stards before I'd even taken up the seated position to go sailing. Does that make me a Rasta sock puppet and for f**ks sakewho even cares? Nobody on here is going to be fooled into doing something he or she shouldn't regarding Laser purchase, I don't get why y'all are so defensive (Not necessarily addressing this at you tink.) Other than it proving my well trodden point that there is no such thing as a true One Design. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 7:57pm
So how did you want it to end? ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 8:18pm
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Dead Rock, I can categorically confirm my club would allow a LP Laser to sail, it would be given PY of a Laser with appropriate sail size, can't see how RYA or anyone else could stop us, would allow it to compete against the UKLA Lasers if they didn't mind, handicap if they did. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 8:26pm
Not piling in on the new poster just because they had an opinion different to the curmudgeons on here would have been a start. Yes, the topic was going over old, emotive, ground but really to constantly accuse someone either trolling or being an idiot is not Charm School 101 and this forum will not attract or retain posters with such attitudes. Y&Y used to be the epicentre of dinghy sailing news and opinion. Now discussion is fragmented over so many media and social media sites, which is regrettable in many ways so one fewer forum would be no bad thing if it helps consolidate discussion in one place.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 9:11pm
I'm not aware of anything in the RSS that prevents a boat which doesn't conform to a set of recognised class rules from racing in a handicap fleet. So, by extension, a LP Laser can race alongside an ILCA in a handicap fleet. My home club have a "Laser Handicap Fleet" with Laser Standard and Radial which could include other "Laser like" boats and rigs. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 9:28pm
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Probably the way I read it Sam.
A2Z, if you feel so strongly about this thread, ask moderators to investigate. Would be interested to know what other Forum we should move to? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 9:41pm
That's not my understanding. I got an opinion from the RYA a few years ago on Rule 78.1. RRS 78.1 reads
Now at the time I was thinking that means that replica sails were banned in all circumstances. However what the RYA said to me was, roughly speaking, that if a boat is not maintained to its class rules it ceases to be a member of that class, and so the class rules no longer apply to it, and so RRS78.1 doesn't apply to it! So here's what I make of that. At first sight that opinion seems silly: it appears you can't break RRS 78.1 because as soon as you break it it doesn't apply! Lets look at the implications of that. You can have a Frankenboat legally with modified rig, you can have a Laser modified to be a Rooster whatsit, you can do anything you like with your boat: its a free country, same as you can have a one off boat you designed yourself. BUT: If your boat has been modified out of class with replica sail, extra purchases on the kicking strap, anything else, no matter how trivial, then it is not a member of its former class anymore, and is ineligible for events for that class, and is not entitled to enter *any* events claiming to be a member of that class. So if Upper Snoring SC puts on an event or series that says International Laser/ILCA in the NOR, a Portuguese Laser is ineligible, as is a boat with a replica sail or anything else in breach of class rules. However if Upper Snoring SC puts on an event or series for "Not-Quite-Lasers" then its completely up to the club what boats they want to consider eligible for their event. And if I enter a handicap event with my Wotsit class boat, but, say, hoist an experimental sail I know to be out of class, then if I claim that my boat is a member of the class then I am in breach of the rules - effectively cheating. However if when I enter I say "My boat is almost a Wotsit, but I have an experimental sail on it" then that's perfectly reasonable and legal. But yes, if I were to enter a boat I knew to be ineligible due to being out of class that would be misconduct, and putting fake WS plaques or otherwise seeking to cheat the rules would be very serious misconduct. OTOH entering my not-quite-a-Laser in a not-quite-a-Laser event is fine. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 9:52pm
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This ^^^ If this was not the case then we'd have no new classes because prototypes would be prohibited from racing... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 11:09pm
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Totally agree with Sam and Jim and fab100 and 423zero and Rupert . And totally disagree with A2Z . The OP posted a theory/point of view which was discussed and dismantled using facts and logic. If forum members think we should have behaved differently perhaps they would be better off on QAnon . ------------- |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 9:58am
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Remember that the rules are the same for yachts, and lotos of lawyers race yachts. Plenty of yachts 'break' their OD class rules and race under IRC with different sail configurations. Racing in the IRC class, they are bound by the rules of IRC and their certificate, not their class rules. Some change their configuration back to OD for some regattas and race in the OD class, others have permanent changes like a new keel. Or even a bowsprit. |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 10:02am
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In the USofA, they have International 420s and 'Club 420s'. Club 420s are cheaper, and popular for college racing Would I be right in guessing the Club 420s don't pay certain fees to WS or whoever? Is it a similar situation in some ways?. Maybe the 'Club Laser' will gain traction over there?
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 10:54am
They probably don't, but the main reason is that the Club 420 is heavily modified to suit an environment where the colleges select and maintain the boats rather than the students, so Club 420s are heavier, much more rugged and considerably detuned compared to an International 420. CA and International fees are pretty trivial compared to the cost of a boat. There's a lot of spin from some quarters about designer's royalties, World Sailing fees etc, but it doesn't appear to me well founded when I actually look at the numbers. Its perhaps appropriate here to note the background of the 'cheap' Laser Performance Lasers. LPs International Lasers were in much the same price bracket as PSJ and PSA International Lasers. However in what to an outsider appeared to be the first public sign of a battle between Class Association and builder Laser Performance (not sure whether LPE Ltd or LP LLC) started selling Lasers without a plaque at a spectacular discount. They claimed that they were able to do this just because there weren't the fees to pay, but the discount they were offering was several times what the fees due to designer, CA and World sailing cost, and its a pretty safe surmise that they were simply slashing their profit margin, presumably to the sort of level mass purchasers like sailing schools were already paying. Superficially similar tactics in other industries have attracted phrases like 'predatory pricing'. One might speculate that LP might have managed to find some cost savings in the build process, but that is pure speculation and I have absolutely no way of knowing one way or the other. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 11:09am
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Forensic evaluation of a LP Laser would help, anyone actually seen one? can't see how they can knock three grands worth of quality out of the boat, unless parts are all sourced from the East, still using ice blue colour, needs a LP whistle blower to spill the beans. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 11:35am
FTFY and I can. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 11:40am
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The Ovi laser costs more because they spend a lot longer making them, control the mast rake with plugs that are used to give consistent mast rake. Resin, cloth, etc are all weighed out before making and a controlled process adds time, plus build in the UK with increased wage rates, etc. I think the ILCA is the right boat for the games. When seeing people like Thompson, Wearn sail the aero in the development, it just looked wrong. It looked like a beach boat and their feedback was it just wasnt as good. The Laser vs ILCA at club racing - would I care if I sailed in ILCA? No. I would want more boats on the start line and if my club could buy a few boats for people to hire and it gave me more boats on the start line, then great! If there was a change to them and they were proven faster, then I may take issue. However right now that is not the case.
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Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 12:21pm
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I agree. Cant see the Laser/ILCA being replaced anytime soon. The Aero isn't different enough, sufficiently quicker etc to offer anything new to the Olympics. The Laser/ILCA will probably uprate things gradually (all carbon spars etc). Its amazing that it can still look quite modern (although so can the OK, Finn etc in their own way I guess). With its short length and beach boat style high boom the Aero is also a lot less aesthetically pleasing IMO. When you add in the lack of numbers worldwide its not even an argument really. |