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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 May 13 at 11:12am
Originally posted by iGRF



Oh I get it now, you'd all have to buy a new boat.


no they wouldn't.  Some might go off and try it, and then realise that actually asymmetric kites offer a rather limited scope when it comes to club sailing, unless of course they are suitable flat/small like the RS200.


You're still stuck in the 90's mate, you just don't realise it...

we NEED to change:

- our boats (to asymmetrics, because they're 'keweller')
- our courses (to windward/leewards, because you can't use the new boat RTC)
- our rules (to hit marks and stop luffing wars with kites up)
- our kit (drysuits bad, need more flexibility)
- our persona (no more yellow wellies and real ale)
- our expectations (no really, it's perfectly NORMAL to capsize every time you go dinghy sailing)

Then someone says, 'erm, why?  I like it the way it is'

So you reply, 'to keep the kids interested, we NEED to do it for the future of the sport'

Then they say, 'really... you are that deluded?'

One day you wake up and realise they are right.... and guess what, the other kids have returned now they can either afford it again or just choose to spend their money on dinghies once more.




Edited by pondmonkey - 24 May 13 at 11:39am
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 13 at 11:17am
Originally posted by iGRF

I don't get why no-one else wonders what bringing a Fireball up to date could achieve, .
it's an old fashioned hull shape. It is quite a quick one, but probably suits the "old fashioned" rig set up better. For all you deride "skiffs" and bethwaite inspired hull shapes, it does seem to be the optimum configuration with an assymetric.
-_
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 13 at 11:20am
Originally posted by iGRF

I don't get why no-one else wonders what bringing a Fireball up to date could achieve,

For me its often a why bother exercise... If you put wide wheels and spoilers/other aero kit on a pre war Blower Bentley you don't end up with a good modern car, you just end up with a ******-up Blower Bentley.

So I reckon the question always has to be "is what you end up with inherently good in itself?". If, for example, the hull shape cannot be significantly improved for the job you have in hand, then by all means upgrade the rig. However if everything is way outdated why bother.

Of course there is one big exception to the above, which is when the answer to "why bother?" is "because it will be a laugh, I'll learn something about boats/whatever, and the world is not short of ratty old Fireballs in the brambles at the back of dinghy parks, so if I butcher for giggles this one that was destined for the dump anyway then why the hell not..."

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oldarnus View Drop Down
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Posts: 17 		Post Options Post Options   Quote oldarnus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 13 at 11:23am
Originally posted by iGRF


The handicap doesn't bother me, they are letting us use 925 now, not that it does us any good and he does get discouraged when to him we are so far ahead, ashore on the trailer quite literally last night yet still finished last. It was chilly so no watching public to placate him with my normal 'no-one sees what goes on in the clubhouse on the spreadsheet, they just see you coming ashore first' and although he keeps smiling I can see he's becoming dispirited especially when he's done well and not got anything wrong.


I know exectly what you mean. In Deben YC, in the fast handicap we race against RS200s, Streakers 300's Vortexs, a couple of Visions plus a few others. We will seldom win, but would be most annoyed if we did not cross the line first and have the boat up the ramp when the others finish. However the Vortex can beat us on the water and one of the 300s. So quite a good race can be had boat for boat especially if one or two other AltOs are out and then it feels like 'fleet racing'!
Re. your boat and its gear, yes you have the standard size main, but the first batch were too flat and the final design is fuller.
You don't give up when you know you have a winner!
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JohnJack View Drop Down
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Posts: 246 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 13 at 11:31am
I would have thought a Fireball wouldn't have enough freeboard for a pole placed anywhere but on the deck, in which case the foredeck isn't that flat. Also if you wanted a canting pole there isn't much in the was of beam.
Also the class is far too established for a change like this, there would be too much resistance to change.
IMHO, and have been thinking about this for a while. A Hornet would be an excellent base for this type of experiment.
You already have a bit shoot and half front tank (unlike the tube on an Fb) which you could mount your pole on, plenty of beam to cant the pole to a point where you could almost be square running. They are a small class that could be revolutionized and may jump at an idea like this.


It just begs to have a pole out the front, also the jib attaches behind the chute so easy to launch recover a big kite
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 13 at 11:35am
A lot of our hull shapes from the past are were very good at what they are supposed to do in a cross section of conditions, what we were exposed to in the nineties from the bethwaite camp were planing only straight rockered things with daggerboard to lower build costs...

Edited by iGRF - 24 May 13 at 12:41pm
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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 13 at 11:57am
Originally posted by iGRF

I don't get why no-one else wonders what bringing a Fireball up to date could achieve, that's what always puzzles me about dinghyists and their stuck in the status quo rut.

What is everybody worried about, if I f**ked it up you can all go - there told you so - but if it turned out better..

Oh I get it now, you'd all have to buy a new boat.

Can't have that now can we, that would be like making a Contender down to 50 kgs all up weight.


BUT... why put an assy kite on a FB, or a Blaze, or a Mirror or whatever, why build a Contender out of fairy-dust or whatever would weight 25-30kg before the rig & foils.... they wouldn't be what they were and they would still be limited by their original design.

You won't find F1 engineers sitting around trying to work out ways of getting a 2013 F1 engine and gearbox into a 1983 chassis and aero package, it would be cr@ppy and pointless, even if it could be done.

You'd be better off starting from new.... as with the Punk or X1, which are all very good solutions to their given briefs, IMO.
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oldarnus View Drop Down
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Posts: 17 		Post Options Post Options   Quote oldarnus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 13 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey

 
  Some might go off and try it, and then realise that actually asymmetric kites offer a rather limited scope when it comes to club sailing, unless of course they are suitable flat/small like the RS200
You're still stuck in the 90's mate, you just don't realise it...

Not true. This not living in the 90's, this is learning from the 90's

As you say, an asymmetric is OK on a 200, so why not on other designs-because Bethwaite was a straight line man and so only believed in speed and big kites. The SMOD manufactureres cashed in on the fashion and left us, yes, with all those rubbish classes with big kites, or smaller kites without swinging poles that litter dinghy parks since they are unsuitable for club RTC courses.

Go for it Graeme. I have thought about the various hulls that have been suggested, and so far my views are perhaps the FB or as JohnJack suggests the Hornet! 
 
You don't give up when you know you have a winner!
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oldarnus View Drop Down
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Posts: 17 		Post Options Post Options   Quote oldarnus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 13 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by getafix

 

You'd be better off starting from new.... as with the Punk or X1, which are all very good solutions to their given briefs, IMO.


Why start from new? That is expensive and would almost certainly not be right first time. Thus start with a shape nearest to what you want to achieve and play with that.
You don't give up when you know you have a winner!
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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 13 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by oldarnus

Originally posted by getafix

 

You'd be better off starting from new.... as with the Punk or X1, which are all very good solutions to their given briefs, IMO.


Why start from new? That is expensive and would almost certainly not be right first time. Thus start with a shape nearest to what you want to achieve and play with that.

Not IMO, you just get a compromise that way. e.g. Aura & RS900 vs 49er FX

Sure, learn from the past, perhaps use old hulls as 'donors' for development, but a 1983 hull shape with a 2013 rig package is still a compromise IMO, period.
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