Fireball Questions
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10885
Printed Date: 16 Jul 25 at 3:16pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Fireball Questions
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Fireball Questions
Date Posted: 21 May 13 at 11:06pm
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I'm minded to have a look at bringing this old hulk up to date with an Assym set up and I've been looking around for some old mingers to have a mess about with, but I notice some seem to have a hole up front for the chute, but others don't so what's going on here?
There are also some that seem to be at pains to crack on about narrow bows, so that must mean there are wide bows, what's all that about, anyone care to give me a potted history, in my day they were a *yuppie boat towed around by Escort Mexico's and avoiding the sea at all costs. The reason for this, we find ourselves my new crew and I, too short and too light for the jolly old Alto of joy, have no interest whatsoever in revisiting the RS500, especially having heard it's history, but want a single trap assym with centreboard which of course there are none. So a Fireball with a proper modern rig on it might suit the bill, no I don't care what they think since I won't be racing them, they should have done this long ago. 
*cept they didn't call them yuppies. |
Replies:
Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 21 May 13 at 11:17pm
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Originally designed as a hiking 2 sail beach boat, the design and the rules evolved as first the trap and then the kite were added.
You can have a chute or use bags, your choice, but due to the low freeboard and generally wet nature of the boat, most people don't find it fast to carry a kite full of water in the bow area. The boat was designed for home build so has some quite big tolerances. This allowed the Aussies to build a very wide bow, low rocker design in the 80's which has become the norm since - longer waterline, better earlier planning and plenty of volume up front to bounce over waves better. They tried an asymmetric and I think discarded it as being a difficult, expensive and unsuccessful change. Actually a really nice boat to sail upwind in a blow... Ian |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 1:11am
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Actually was a river boat. Fireball 1 was launched at Trent Valley sailing club. The original photos are still in the club scrapbook. We used to spend ages trawling through them as kids.
I believe the asymmetric was tried by winders and found to he no faster and less versatile. There was an article in Y and Y about it at the time. The rest of the rig looked standard from what I can remember and am sure there was not a canting pole system. ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 8:10am
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I suggest trying a twin trap setup on the Alto. Are all the 'dead' asy SMODS like Buzz, Spice, Iso dagger board? Would it be easier to stick a centreboard case in one of these or a 4000 than to retrofit a sprit to a Fireball? But splicing an extra trap wire is an afternoon's experiment. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 8:22am
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Putting a pivoting centreboard into one of those double bottom boats would be a pretty nasty job because you need, of course, to make it 100% watertight and access would be very difficult. You'd really need to split hull and deck, and by the time you've done all that, well, you might almost as well build a new boat.
I suggest that for the original frankenboat concept a 470 might be a better donor than a Fireball. |
Posted By: MattTrinder
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 8:30am
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>> Are all the 'dead' asy SMODS like Buzz, Spice, Iso dagger board? Yep they are. There are several Single Trap Assymetrics with a centerboard :- Topper Vibe/Magno/Omega/Xenon Laser Bahia/Vago Can't think of any that are not roto-molds though... |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 8:35am
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Hi Grf
Stick a trapeze on am old rs 400.centreboard, asymetric and old one getting cheap. with the large beam making up for your weight and stature. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: Mister Nick
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 8:40am
Refering to the RS500... what do you mean by 'it's history', just out of interest?
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 8:40am
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If GRF already has the FB, then it makes it by far the best choice to butcher, surely? Somehow, scow bowed boats with a bowsprit always look somewhat strange, but plenty of the yankee scows have them, so they must work. The FB's tried it in the early days, but I think there was a lack of true understanding of what makes am assy boat work well, and how much bigger the kite needs to be than a sym one for it to actually be faster round the course. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 8:45am
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I'd thought of the 470 and agree it badly needs doing, but we have a couple racing and they wouldn't like us messing about, which would inevitably end in handicap tears, same story with the RS400 there are two or three of them racing as well and they'd whine even more if we started trapping.
The Fireball is relatively unknown down here probably because of the water condition but if the donor boat was cheap enough a risk I'm prepared to take, I dare say when they tried it with an assym they didn't go all that big with the kite or fit a swivel pole a la Alto and have they got a carbon rig? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 8:52am
Lets just say it took a lot of 'prototypes' to get right and then there were doubts that it was, and I owned one for a couple of years, I didn't know as much back then as I do now and interesting that I've had a PM I can't discuss from an enthusiastic 500 owner who claims to have unlocked the mystery but wants to win this year so I'm forbidden from disclosing the secret until the end of the season once the Trophy cabinet is full.
It is also pretty overpowered from memory when I had my tall heavier crew so not necessarily going to do it for us. |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 8:54am
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The Assy Fireball was quicker than the standard, the reason because they used a bigger assy so all they really proved that if you have a bigger kite you go faster downwind. The members weren't taken by it and the class decided to stay as they are. It was not a swinging pole.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 8:55am
On the money there Rupert posting at the same time, I haven't got one yet, thought I'd research a bit more this time rather than just jumping in. |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 9:07am
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the beauty of frankenboats are that you set the rules. As such, no need for a complex retracting pole systems, simply bolt it on and add a couple of cheezes for support. Sure, it might make sense to have stepped back to bags in the symmetric mode- wasn't it Rodney Pat or Lawrie Smith who influenced that? But to go back to bags on an asymmetric.... oooh, dangerously close to being another 'washerwoman' like Mr Storer. ------------- |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 9:16am
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I reckon a hornet would make the perfect baseboat, nice big chute, similar sized crews to fireball, but much more freeboard. Nice looking boats, always wanted one years ago. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 9:25am
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So, next question has anyone built an epoxy wash through down to weight version and if so from what number would that likely be?
And if as someone pointed out they were for home build are there plans anywhere still? |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 9:26am
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notes from puddleshire: http://www.draycotewater.co.uk/fleets/fireball/html/buying_a_boat.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.draycotewater.co.uk/fleets/fireball/html/buying_a_boat.html ------------- |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 9:34am
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just a side thought... whatever happened to the Peaky's NS14 hull? Doesn't it live somewhere in the Icon prototype archive somewhere nr Reading? Worth giving Mike a call... if he won't sell it at a very reasonable price (you're doing him a favour giving him back real estate aren't you?), well if he won't budge, threaten to buy an Icon confirming you absolutely will add wires and a kite and post photos of the 'new and improved' iKon all over the internet.... you could even call it 'Baby-sham' for added insult  ------------- |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 9:41am
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why not take a different route and adopt a contender hull? Centreboard, carbon spars available, easily big enough for two, assy adaptations already tried. A fireball jib would fit well. Nicer sea boat than the fireball (imho) Alternatively I have a foreman 4g cherub hull here, waiting for a false floor and assy conversion. If you weren't afraid of trying to fit a centreboard that would suit really well, especially given your size issues. And as I'm always saying, I have a 14ft kevlar hull here, would also need the centreboard conversion, but would make a good prototype. Weight 45kg. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 10:27am
That's not as stupid a suggestion as some might think actually, you're right, there is room for a jib and you could sort the main so there is room to duck under, it might be a bit canine in light weather, but no that's locked in for consideration. Good out of box thinking there wing wang, well make a modern lass of you yet
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 10:31am
What's this about, not on the radar, what's an NS14, what's it got to do with an Icon and yes had I been a bit flusher with the readies, an Icon with a kite would be perfect that Mike Lyons Spinnakerphobia has a lot to answer for. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 10:31am
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I'd worry about weight carrying capacity on a Contender hull...
> foreman 4g cherub hull here, waiting for a false floor and assy conversion. I wouldn't do that! |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 10:33am
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contender with asymmetric kite- naturally you're taking it further with a crew and jib. 
 ------------- |
Posted By: tick
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 11:01am
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Nice Fireball, cheap, know what I mean.....in the nettles for a few years but all there. £50 ish.....There are loads of them about. Presumably you are not looking for wood. Old grp's or compos are no good. Late Winders are nice but expensive, too expensive to cut about. Late ones always have these little adjustable posts for jib sheeting.....complicated. I always thought that a Fireball could carry a bigger symetric kite with a longer pole. In fact I have an old kite somewhere. I have crewed them and they feel very stable for a narrow boat. How about using a Tasar hull? Very light and stiff. You would need a different mast though if you wanted to hang traps and kite off it. I have one of those but I am doing it up for sale this year. The other thing is a Scorpion, I can get one of those cheap. Longish and thin. I believe they sail off 1016 and have a centreboard.
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 11:07am
I think the contender would carry the weight pretty well. As for the cherub, I don't want to do it either, which is why it's been waiting so long. It's that or trash the hull.... ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 11:07am
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Scorpion.. Now there's a blast from the past. Hythe was a big Scorpion club back in the day, held Nationals and everything they were probably one of the first casualties of the inital Assym storm I remember a couple of key guys buying Iso's then quickly losing interest but the damage was done, folk rarely go back.
Interesting anecdote, I once spent an afternoon and evening sanding an up turned Scorpion trying to double concave the hull, no idea if it ever worked for the guy but it seemed like a good idea at the time since double con caves were all the rage on sailboards, encouraging early planing as per flying boat floats helped release with the concaves. |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 11:09am
you can't trash it... just donate it to someone who wants it. ------------- |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 11:15am
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I reckon a contender would be pretty rubbish as a single string two man boat. The cockpit floor is surely too high to make it comfortable for the helm, muct be even shallower than an laser 2 or 3000 thingy ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 11:33am
there were only 2 foreman 4gs ever made. There's a reason for that. The contender cockpit is about the same as the 3000/laser 2 cockpit. I remember sailing a laser 2 at Oxford that had been fitted with a bolted on pole etc, it was being trialled by laser as the prototype for the 3000. If grimpf is doing something similar good luck to him. Has to be more sensible than the doomed V twin. Of course, single wire centreboard double hander.....there's always the Vago. sits back to enjoy fun ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 12:05pm
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i guess he only has little legs! ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 12:09pm
search this forum for Toby's NS14 thread... or save yourself the time and call Mike, I'm sure Toby and he used the NS14 hull for extensive research into the Icon. It's not the same as an Icon, but the lineage is clear to see, and as you're butchering it anyway, why pay the premium for the 'finished hull' of an Ikon, when the prototype (a full finished boat in its own right) could be sitting there, begging for a bit of cillit bang and some forum vapour. ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 12:22pm
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Isn't there a version with an assy already? MG14?? And doesn't it have a daggerboard? Mind, Mike's one might have been converted when used as the test bed.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 12:45pm
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in fairness I'm not sure about the DB... but it seemed a sweet looking two man hull from the photos I saw, much like the Icon... there could be worse platforms to start with! ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 1:29pm
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Can't find it, searched with NS14 all that came up were references here, did it have a centre board or dagger?
No MG14 either. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 1:29pm
They have a centreboard, but the PN is 1044 this year. Sticking a trapeze on a 400 has some appeal. But if big sails are the name of the game, what's not to like about twin wires? Depends where and how you want to race. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 1:34pm
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Found http://www.thorpeboats.com/ns14/%20" rel="nofollow - this , daggerboard referred to as a centreboard incorrectly imv.
Nice shaped boat, just the ticket if it had a retracting plate. |
Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 1:36pm
| What about getting some smaller sails for the Alto made? Or is that too simple an idea? You may even find that a mainsail from another boat will fit. |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 1:44pm
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pretty sure there was a conversion done to centreboard. Toby sailed it at Rock, so centreboard would have been useful given the tide states.... speak with Mike for clarity. ------------- |
Posted By: Mister Nick
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 1:51pm
I've got one too. Glad I'm not the only person whose had issues with it. One of the reasons we're selling ours is because we still haven't cracked the bloody thing and don't have time to keep fannying about with it. I'm dieing to know what this guy said to you, it'll be interesting to find out at the end of the season.
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 1:57pm
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http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3650&KW=RS500+leaked&title=experiences-from-the-newbie-helm-of-a-500" rel="nofollow - a little trip down memory lane for the RS500 sailors out there.... ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 2:09pm
Far too simple GF! How would we get a long, long thread out of that idea? All GRF would have to do is do it... It would make a lot of sense, though. Might even make a nicer boat, seeing as the modern trend seems to be to bung up as much sail as possible and then add a bit. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 3:08pm
I do have a smaller main, used it on Sunday, but still we went over when broadsided by a lifting gust, we've also been beaten every week so far by my old RS500 (it's had a handicap boost along with the L3k which is now also beating us on smaller courses)not normally over the water but close enough to irritate. The thing that we are finding very annoying with the Alto, even though we went over, it was a dry capsize until we got back in the boat, it quite literally fills to the gunwales and takes forever to empty (particularly since we'd taped the back balers shut). |
Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 3:30pm
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If you both do a dry capsize then ANY boat will take on loads of water as the boat will float lower on its side due to 2 people standing on the centreboard and hence will scoop up loads more water, you should push your crew off into the water to make the boat float higher while you right it. In my Oppie days we were told to jump off the centreboard and right the boat from the water so it scooped up less water (the Oppie ia dreadful for how much water it ships and obviously it isnt quick enough for a self bailer so you have to manually get rid of all the water!). Maybe a smaller pinhead main with even less sail area up top will help you, what about a Scorpion mainsail?
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 3:41pm
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Just sort the transom flaps. Even Merlins drain very quickly in enough breeze to capsize. There is a lack of joined-up logic in worrying about being beaten by Rs500's on PY then contemplating building a boat that has no PY. I can see no justification for the RS500 having a higher PY than the RS400. But if the issue is creating a boat that's pleasant to race and sod the results on PY, then I understand that mindset.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 4:19pm
That's the mindset, if I wanted to win then it's back to the L3k, or slog along the back in a Miracle, I like to be in the mix with a chance if it's breezy and out front in clean air if it's light to medium. But most important now I know what good manners are in a boat, I kind of want that as well, but you know, I'd just love a boat with everything on it, you'd think by now there would be something wouldn't you, but no, every mothermolesting one of them is flawed in one way or another.. |
Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 4:47pm
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Graham if your in the market for an old fireball hull, there's one at downs that's abandoned that you could offer a few pounds to the rnli.
On another note the I14 that's for sale at downs is up for a 'few hundred quid" said the owner. You could use the rig from that will be perfect for the vtwin. Dan Dan ------------- Laser 184084 Tasar 3501 RS600 698 RS600 782 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 4:58pm
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What colour is it?
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Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 5:27pm
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Fireball is pretty trashed but pale blue..
Dan ------------- Laser 184084 Tasar 3501 RS600 698 RS600 782 |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 22 May 13 at 6:15pm
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Fireballs appear to use a pretty much deck-sweeping jib. These are, to my understanding, more efficient upwind (something about end plates). If you installed an Alto-style bowsprit you move the tack of the jib up considerably. This would leave the foot well above the deck, and badly alter jib sheeting angles . The assy scows use a fixed pole, mounted of centre line but presumably with the spinnaker tack on the centre line when fully extended- and thus they need to be fairly beefy and well mounted. Pictures I've seen show the pole extending from the foredeck, near the bow (which does look odd). ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 May 13 at 10:09am
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I'd kind of thought about punching the swinging pole out under the deck through the nose, the fireball nose was kind of the inspiration of the V twin nose, except they couldn't do it, not sure why now.
It's true my Alto style bow and lower jib is messy, I kind of screwed that up, I'd do that differently now, definitely run the forestay above or behind the spinnaker ejection point and it would be super nice to have a deck sweeping jib, know all about end plate effect, pretty mandatory on race boards going up wind. |
Posted By: tick
Date Posted: 23 May 13 at 11:22am
| I think I see now. kick out that flat panel that forms the bow and poke out the swinging pole. Punch through the foredeck further back for the chute. Lots of engineering.....probably better off with a composite boat then. Rip off the w**den foredeck for installation. A lot of water would come in though......Fireball has tanks front and rear, where would it go? |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 23 May 13 at 11:42am
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Under the bow would be far too low- it would be a pain to seal, and if it wasn't sealed it would gulp water (especially upwind) ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: oldarnus
Date Posted: 23 May 13 at 12:00pm
So you have been getting rather wet recently, and not just from the rain! Firstly, perhaps you are expecting a bit much since yes you are clearly on the light side, but as easy as the AltO is to sail, a new team and a crew who is new to trapezing do need some practice, and you elready expect to be winning. My observation from knowing you and reading this thread would be:- Firstly don't go from the frying pan and into the fire. i.e. by going through a similar experience as you did with the V Twin. I remember when you visited the AltO stand, just five minutes after the Dinghy Show opened in 2008, you asked for a new boat immediately. I said delivery would be two or the months. Your reply was that you were sixty and did not intend waisting another year of your life wating for one.. You insisted on buying the prototype stand boat. Graeme you are now five years older! I'm not suggesting you stick with the AltO if it does not suit your your new team, but as RS400 says you will hardly be allowed to win races with a new toy and an favourable PY. Next chapter will comment further, but I will send this before the reply capsizes. ------------- You don't give up when you know you have a winner! |
Posted By: oldarnus
Date Posted: 23 May 13 at 12:43pm
So to continue:- The capsize you referred to was when close hauled. Additional crew weight/ leaverage, and /or smaller sails might not have prevented it. It sounds more like slow reaction and cleats not released. Do you have the original main sheet cleat. Does it need replacing. Until recently you have always used the prototype large mainsail at about 12M2, though you were using the standard 11m2 on this occasion. I recall you saying the class mainsail was too small, and thus used the non class big one. You have recently purchased the class kite which is 17m2. Why not revert to your old on which is 16m2, though I guess it needs replacing after 5 years. The PY you use at your club for the large mainsail I recall is 915. For the standard main, 925 is used. What are you using?. Yes, you are on the light side, and shortish. I'm not much taller than you and no doubt the same weigh at about 67Kg, oh and 9 years older and don't sit out. Geoff my crew is tallish at 6ft 2in and 75 kg, but a youngster at about mid fifties. How does this compare with you? What sort of wind strength gives you problems? Obviously you also can have roughish seas at Hythe so a couple more stones can be useful in these condition.. About a quarter of AltOs have female crews and mostly sail in estuaries. There is also one all female boat in which the crew is eight stone, about 5ft 3in and dare I say middle aged!I To continue ------------- You don't give up when you know you have a winner! |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 23 May 13 at 1:00pm
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1 sq metre is not a big change in sail area, percentage wise.OK that extra area may be high up, and contribute more to heeling moment, but if it's in the form of roach, it should have reasonable gust response? I don't think shrinking the sails by a few percent would change much, unless it chages the whole character of the rig? Having had a very pleasant sail on an 800 last night, my view that twin wires is the natural way to go for decent size courses is reinforced. It's unfortunate that there is no obvious pivoting board boat, as where I mostly sail is not only shallow at the edges, but also at poorly defined places in the middle. I don't think it would be hard to convert a B14, RS800 or whatever to lifting board, several people have started the conversion by the simple process of running aground at speed....
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 May 13 at 1:23pm
I'd better not say this is what I'd do, because the chances of that approximate to zero. But given this dubious requirement I suggest you consider taking the foredeck off and putting in a "false floor" so that there's a low bow tank under all the gubbins. Might be possible to juggle things so that the pole comes through the deck alongside or just in front of the forestay to reduce water ingress. I believe some of the US scows play that game. Maybe remove everything in front of the forestay to make room for the crazy gubbins and put a cloth cover over to reduce water ingress,and just replace the deck aft of the forestay. Come to think of it, if you're going to rip the foredeck off anyway it might be worth raising the centreline considerably to make room for the gear, terminating the centrebeam in some *very* serious structure that lifts the jib tack up about three inches. With some juggling of the cross section of the deck you could probably raise the jib quite a bit without losing and end plate effect or changing the gunwhales. The extreme would be a flat topped deck with "chines" - as below so above! Early Meatballs, BTW, had the jib on a short strop, they only brought them down to deck level to gain the end plate effect later. |
Posted By: oldarnus
Date Posted: 23 May 13 at 2:58pm
The AltO main is 11m2. Perhaps the prototype sail was 12.5 with the square head batten twice the length, thus it was at the head and not on the roach. GRF does not say if his capsizing problem is across the board or on the beat. The AltO is a very forgiving boat and designed to minimise capsizing potential. I suggest the problem is practice and boat gear. Regarding not winning, I'm sure his competitors in other classes have views on this. The AltO is a very rewarding boat to sail and performs well across all conditions, but if always winning is essential to enjoying your racing then you at least should start with a bandit class which the AltO isn't. Re. the filling up to the gunwales after capsize, Gybefunny explained it well. Best is that one goes in the water then, on righting, it will only be a third full or so. The advantage of this is that it is not going to blow away and unlikely to turn turtle. You are expecting a bit much if it is to drain quickly with the flaps shut. Minimising causes of capsize have been built into the design of the boat, thus not double bottomed. You don't deserve to win a race if you capsize. ------------- You don't give up when you know you have a winner! |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 23 May 13 at 3:52pm
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My old fashioned definition of 'roach' is anything outside a straight line from head to clew, so includes the bit high up on a long top batten. If you want to win meaningfully, don't buy a bandit class, buy the same as the other buggers and sail better than them. Easier advice to give than follow, but it's good when it works. Capsizing doesn't tend to win races, but recovering reasonably quickly and finishing mid fleet can win you a series. It can be amusing to watch Merlins fall over, virtually sink, right and get going again. It often does look a lot quicker than turtling a 400.
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 23 May 13 at 5:04pm
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GRF, don't poke holes in a nice boat or faff about with an assy kite on a FB, use the one the good lord intended and thousands of others have tried to, or actually mastered.. it's fun and bl**dy quick when you get it right and it's honking...... ......crosses fingers and hopes GRF gets frightened off on behalf of all other FB sailors |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 12:10am
With many thanks from a furball sailor :-) ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 8:55am
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I've worked out why we went over, he didn't uncleat the jib, it's a self tacker and has proven in the past big enough to take us over if left cleated, the main was out and the boom in the water once your up on your ear.
We're just inexperienced as a team and as you all know and I've said often enough it's the crew that wins or loses it. I'm going to have a look at that furball close up, see if we can't drag those luddites into the 21st century, albeit screaming.
I'm not looking to get rid of the Alto, just see if something else could be cobbled together that would suit a lighter crew in a blow. The handicap doesn't bother me, they are letting us use 925 now, not that it does us any good and he does get discouraged when to him we are so far ahead, ashore on the trailer quite literally last night yet still finished last. It was chilly so no watching public to placate him with my normal 'no-one sees what goes on in the clubhouse on the spreadsheet, they just see you coming ashore first' and although he keeps smiling I can see he's becoming dispirited especially when he's done well and not got anything wrong. |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 9:17am
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get a 420
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 9:18am
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Get something you can class race against at your home club. ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 9:18am
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welcome to handicap racing.... I remember doing well in my Phantom once (you know, one of those rare occasions when you call all the shifts upwind spot on and you somehow also sail well downwind despite 20 consistent years of losing ground as soon as you turn the weather mark...) Only to be faced with the usual 'it's a bandit' accusations once the spreadsheet was in. Wouldn't it be nice if these things truly didn't affect us and how much we enjoy that time on the water? Compare that to the first time I was in the pack with our Solo fleet and still managed to stay there by the end. All I got was congratulations and someone saying I was definitely quicker offwind than normal. Our Laser fleet 'do encouragement' by routine, probably better than us in the Solos. That's why they are growing massively, despite the wider trends in falling memberships in other areas of the club/sport. And you won't find a better spirited bunch of sailors than the MPS guys for ensuring the bottom of the fleet are given every possible tip, technique and trick to get them further up at the next event. So it's not about the boat or what sails it has or hasn't got- it's about the people. You all need to have a serious sit down and find out what you want from your sailing. Sounds to me like a bunch of disparate sailors 'cruising in company' in their favourite chariots around a course of buoys with a start; not a proper sailboat race. Fine if you accept that for what it is, not fine if you have any vague notion of competitiveness in your bones.
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 9:46am
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"I'm not looking to get rid of the Alto, just see if something else could be cobbled together that would suit a lighter crew in a blow". In a blow the most important thing is for everything to work smoothly and easily, do you not think that life is too short and sailing time too limited spend time cobbling something together. The Alto is a sorted boat that you really like, is it really worthwhile spending time and money on a project when you could be sailing instead? "The handicap doesn't bother me, they are letting us use 925 now, not that it does us any good and he does get discouraged when to him we are so far ahead, ashore on the trailer quite literally last night yet still finished last. It was chilly so no watching public to placate him with my normal 'no-one sees what goes on in the clubhouse on the spreadsheet, they just see you coming ashore first' and although he keeps smiling I can see he's becoming dispirited especially when he's done well and not got anything wrong". If you are not bothered by results why not simply work on what you've got, I and a lot of others sail classes we are too light for, but there is a lot of quiet satisfaction to be had in going out in a blow and getting it round the course by good technique even if a little behind the heavies. What I and the other lightweights I know do in a blow is, dump the rig right back, ease the board up a lot, maybe even pull on the clew flattener, stuff the jib cars right forward and sail free 'n' fast. It's a lot of fun ((-; Best of luck whichever way you go, keep us posted.
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 9:49am
| Edit. Edit. Alert. Whoops typo, jib carrs right back. |
Posted By: oldarnus
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 10:55am
Does the self tacking cleat need lowering by 50mm or so?. The standard position is now lower and most likely for the reason you experienced. One reason the jib is self-tacking is to minimise capsizing when the jib is not unjammed, a common reason for capsizing when the jib is large. However in a good breeze and with largish waves it can still take you over if left jammed and not previously eased. ------------- You don't give up when you know you have a winner! |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 10:56am
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I don't get why no-one else wonders what bringing a Fireball up to date could achieve, that's what always puzzles me about dinghyists and their stuck in the status quo rut.
What is everybody worried about, if I f**ked it up you can all go - there told you so - but if it turned out better.. Oh I get it now, you'd all have to buy a new boat.
Can't have that now can we, that would be like making a Contender down to 50 kgs all up weight. |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 11:00am
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Go for it Graeme! If you can afford it and don't want to have a good resale value then that is up to you. I think there have been some positive suggestions here on reworking the foredeck. ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 11:00am
Is it now? When did that happen? I have a problem anyway that big metal hoop I use as a Spinnaker chute interacts with the foot of the jib and not in a good way. You know I don't like your system (nor do some other Alto owners I've spoken to fyi)it is lighter, but it's still behind the jib and although giving a lfat surface for the jib doesn't help the deploying or collection of the kite imv. |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 11:12am
no they wouldn't. Some might go off and try it, and then realise that actually asymmetric kites offer a rather limited scope when it comes to club sailing, unless of course they are suitable flat/small like the RS200. You're still stuck in the 90's mate, you just don't realise it... we NEED to change: - our boats (to asymmetrics, because they're 'keweller') - our courses (to windward/leewards, because you can't use the new boat RTC) - our rules (to hit marks and stop luffing wars with kites up) - our kit (drysuits bad, need more flexibility) - our persona (no more yellow wellies and real ale) - our expectations (no really, it's perfectly NORMAL to capsize every time you go dinghy sailing) Then someone says, 'erm, why? I like it the way it is' So you reply, 'to keep the kids interested, we NEED to do it for the future of the sport' Then they say, 'really... you are that deluded?' One day you wake up and realise they are right.... and guess what, the other kids have returned now they can either afford it again or just choose to spend their money on dinghies once more. ------------- |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 11:17am
------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 11:20am
For me its often a why bother exercise... If you put wide wheels and spoilers/other aero kit on a pre war Blower Bentley you don't end up with a good modern car, you just end up with a ******-up Blower Bentley. So I reckon the question always has to be "is what you end up with inherently good in itself?". If, for example, the hull shape cannot be significantly improved for the job you have in hand, then by all means upgrade the rig. However if everything is way outdated why bother. Of course there is one big exception to the above, which is when the answer to "why bother?" is "because it will be a laugh, I'll learn something about boats/whatever, and the world is not short of ratty old Fireballs in the brambles at the back of dinghy parks, so if I butcher for giggles this one that was destined for the dump anyway then why the hell not..." |
Posted By: oldarnus
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 11:23am
I know exectly what you mean. In Deben YC, in the fast handicap we race against RS200s, Streakers 300's Vortexs, a couple of Visions plus a few others. We will seldom win, but would be most annoyed if we did not cross the line first and have the boat up the ramp when the others finish. However the Vortex can beat us on the water and one of the 300s. So quite a good race can be had boat for boat especially if one or two other AltOs are out and then it feels like 'fleet racing'! Re. your boat and its gear, yes you have the standard size main, but the first batch were too flat and the final design is fuller. ------------- You don't give up when you know you have a winner! |
Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 11:31am
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I would have thought a Fireball wouldn't have enough freeboard for a pole placed anywhere but on the deck, in which case the foredeck isn't that flat. Also if you wanted a canting pole there isn't much in the was of beam. Also the class is far too established for a change like this, there would be too much resistance to change. IMHO, and have been thinking about this for a while. A Hornet would be an excellent base for this type of experiment. You already have a bit shoot and half front tank (unlike the tube on an Fb) which you could mount your pole on, plenty of beam to cant the pole to a point where you could almost be square running. They are a small class that could be revolutionized and may jump at an idea like this. http://www.hornet.org.uk/images/07082_Wed_281p.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://www.hornet.org.uk/images/07082_Wed_281p.jpg It just begs to have a pole out the front, also the jib attaches behind the chute so easy to launch recover a big kite
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 11:35am
| A lot of our hull shapes from the past are were very good at what they are supposed to do in a cross section of conditions, what we were exposed to in the nineties from the bethwaite camp were planing only straight rockered things with daggerboard to lower build costs... |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 11:57am
BUT... why put an assy kite on a FB, or a Blaze, or a Mirror or whatever, why build a Contender out of fairy-dust or whatever would weight 25-30kg before the rig & foils.... they wouldn't be what they were and they would still be limited by their original design. You won't find F1 engineers sitting around trying to work out ways of getting a 2013 F1 engine and gearbox into a 1983 chassis and aero package, it would be cr@ppy and pointless, even if it could be done. You'd be better off starting from new.... as with the Punk or X1, which are all very good solutions to their given briefs, IMO.
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Posted By: oldarnus
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 12:01pm
Not true. This not living in the 90's, this is learning from the 90's As you say, an asymmetric is OK on a 200, so why not on other designs-because Bethwaite was a straight line man and so only believed in speed and big kites. The SMOD manufactureres cashed in on the fashion and left us, yes, with all those rubbish classes with big kites, or smaller kites without swinging poles that litter dinghy parks since they are unsuitable for club RTC courses. Go for it Graeme. I have thought about the various hulls that have been suggested, and so far my views are perhaps the FB or as JohnJack suggests the Hornet! ------------- You don't give up when you know you have a winner! |
Posted By: oldarnus
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 12:09pm
Why start from new? That is expensive and would almost certainly not be right first time. Thus start with a shape nearest to what you want to achieve and play with that. ------------- You don't give up when you know you have a winner! |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 12:17pm
Not IMO, you just get a compromise that way. e.g. Aura & RS900 vs 49er FX Sure, learn from the past, perhaps use old hulls as 'donors' for development, but a 1983 hull shape with a 2013 rig package is still a compromise IMO, period. |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 12:26pm
Or alternatively, try out an assy rig on an old 5o5... oh hang on a minute, isn't that how the Alto came about?
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 12:49pm
I see where you're going, but the market response has been mute. The RS200 had a square running system long before the Asbo came around. The class voted it out. L4000 has a wing-wang... that boat is dead, replaced with RS800s and RS500s - neither of which favour a squaring system. I don't doubt the Alto 'works' to compromise this. I just don't see the take up or the market really wanting it. We've had 500s come and go at our club. But the Fireball remains the far more popular choice- with mixed age bracket crews loving getting involved. I just don't see adding an asymmetric would add any value- it didn't before, it won't again. The only one thing you could do to 'turbo' something is add a wire to an RS400... save the knees, the scaffolding would probably take it. But all credit for Graeme for investing more time and money at fools folly... however despite, what 10 years messing around in dinghies, has he ever once invested in an established, successful class that offers some local fleet racing?
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 12:50pm
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Agreed that Hornet pic (only just clicked it) not a boat or name I'm familiar with or likely to come across cheap in this part of the world.
Why Assy? because it is easy and if we want to attract newcomers like me, the sport needs to be easy to train new adults to do. This time last year Trev had never so much set foot on a boat, now he's complaining that we don't win on handicap, you wont achieve that in one of your complex Symmetric birds nests. I don't even know what to do in a symmettric boat and don't want to thank you, you're all dead and dying now go away somewhere & lie down, it's like return of the zombies here...
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 12:54pm
hmm, he steps foot in a boat and expects to winning the year after, and if he doesn't, it's the boat's fault.... I wonder who his mentor has been? Perhaps you'd both be better with Laser Radials- we'll even let you keep that 'favourable' inland handicap ------------- |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 12:55pm
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Come now GRF, I'm sure your not as simple as you make out. My boys were using a symmetric spinnaker on our Mirror when they were 5 years old - it really is very simple. Why not force yourself to sit at the front of a slow wooden boat for a couple of hours and you'll see they really are very simple to use. Armed with this new skill and knowledge you might then be able to design the ultimate 'all courses and conditions' handicap racer.
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Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 12:58pm
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You can get Hornets pretty cheap where ever you go. Not too many of them however, mainly on the South Coast & Essex. A friend of mine does them up, onto his third, never paid a dime for one. Most of them are composite with a flat wooden deck. A coat or two of 2 pot and it is as good as plastic. 3 on Apollo Duck, two for less than £500, the other is relatively new, completely open cockpit for £1500 (looks a bit like an old I14 pre racks) |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 1:01pm
He's had a good and well rounded introduction to sailing thanks to my ever so insightful education.
And very enthusiastic he has now become, despite the bandits, bad boats, crap courses, mad women, squalls, storms and all the other slings and arrows of outrageous fortune that have beset him in his quest. I have guided him through the valley of the shadow...
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 1:23pm
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 1:49pm
Having just gone from symmetric to assy I'm starting to doubt my wisdom  .I'm missing the versatility. I'd describe it as a step sideways rather than a step forward. It's where the class racing is though and there is a growing fleet of 200s at the club so looking forward to that aspect...no doubt it'll grow on me. We did consider the FB but I just don't like the look of them, a great boat no doubt but ugly IMO (eye of the beholder and all that) I didn't hink it would be too good on the south coast either. Tinkering is good fun though so best of luck to you. What donor assy were you considering? |
Posted By: SUGmeister
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 2:26pm
I am absolutely convinced that I recall that the Dutch Hornet fleet morphed into a class with a big fathead mainsail, twin trapezes and asymmetric spinnaker. Photos of it looked odd but this was in the early days of twin trap asys in the UK and thoze crazy hollanders had nothing of their own to play with. Probably didn't last long and probably killed the Dutch class outright. Scanned the web and can find nothing to substantiate this. Even so if the Dutch, in my head, can do it then so can Graeme ------------- Simon SUGmeister I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me. |
Posted By: tick
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 2:37pm
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Oi! Grf.....Ebay, Tasar, Mylars, complete, Didcot, £260 4 hours to go!!!!!!! |
Posted By: oldarnus
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 2:56pm
The 200 did not have a kite at all as originally designed. It was added since it was so slow. It was a retrofit but the canting pole could not be added, thus the square running system was added. Clearly Morrison believed it needed it. It was on his two earlier designs, the 400 and L4000. The class voted it out not because it did not pay but it was difficult to use. Thus it now suffers having to zig zag, but I believe the 200 is a good club boat and can sail quite deep. I suggest the 4000 is dead not because of the wing/wang but due to the boats weight, discomfort and difficulty to sail. The 400 is hanging in. Wing/wangs were not fitted to later asymmetric designs due to the price wars between the three SMODS. Laser told me that the could not consider a wing/wang or swinging pole if it added more than £25 to the cost. IMO, winging poles are an advantage on boats with kites up to say 20m2 and PYs higher than approx.900. in medium and light winds, and depending on tide. Not having them on boats with high PYs and small kites meant most would not survive. These classes were doomed before launch. I was asked by a Vision sailor to sail his boat and try and establish why it seldom payed to fly the kite. He found that a Vision goose-winging the jib would nearly always go faster boat for boat when running in even medium winds. The answer was simple. It needed a swinging pole. Another boat that desperately needs one is the L2000 I'm not surprised the 500s have come and gone at your club. they might have hung in if they had a swinging pole. ------------- You don't give up when you know you have a winner! |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 2:57pm
------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: tick
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 3:44pm
| I know it has been done but did they use a different mast? Lets see the picture......... |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 3:48pm
yeah... different mast, shoved wings on it and gave it an open transom cockpit:
 Pretty much the same hull. And the same daggerboard. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 4:51pm
What the Vision needs is some serious weight loss. It's actually a decent hull shape and can embarass RS400s in light to medium weather upwind. It's great for teaching kids to crew with an asy. The 200 is just horribly slow in my view, but that means the yoofs and hooligans can sail it in a near gale, and in sensible breeze it delivers close class racing. I think the SRS was really kicked out because it does not fit the image and tends to spoil the tactical games of w/l racing. Even Mr Bethwaite said in one of his books that asy's are fairly pointless with boats that are fundamentally too slow. In my view, the 400 is about as slow a boat as you can have to make the asy pay over a symmetric kite. And without the wing-wang, it would probably be in the 'too slow' camp a lot of the time. But if the aim of your game is not pure speed but more enjoyable sailing with a simpler boat, the slower asy classes make a lot of sense. That suits a lot of people, but it's a crowded market, and the SMOD merchants keep diluting the beer with yet more quasi-classes, and too many people will buy a new Vagno or Tago over a used RS200 or whatever. Contrast hoisting an RS kite by numbers with a Merlin: Pull purple string, pull red string, pull black string till it's all the way up, pull the blue string till it stops flapping. Anyway to get back on topic, if you want speed, you need power/weight. I can't see a Fireball hull delivering that any better than the Alto, it is quite narrow. Go and ask for a test sail in an 800. Then buy an old twin wire 14.... If you want performance in the 'PY below about 900' league, the need to wingwang the pole has mostly gone. It makes a big difference on the 400, but much less on the 4000. 29ers don't often seem to be held back by not having it. If the pivoting plate is non-negotiable, you want either a cheap twin wire boat and a box of angle grinder discs, or a second string for the Alto. My Dad put a plate case in a rowing dinghy once, it really would not be very hard to do. Perhaps a Furball will be the plate donor? Of course you would lose the ability to have the plate lifted a bit without being moved back. Jon Turner's Shebazzle has a hatchet plate, where the pivot is right forward, connected to the foil by a sort of arm, lifting it 20 or 30% only moves it back a little, of course being a Merlin you can rake the rig back to compensate for that anyway. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 4:59pm
Daggerboard tick I don't like them. |
Posted By: tick
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 5:14pm
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Pah......we sailed ours on a lake and had no problem. Mind you the Lightning I sail now has a centreboard and it is convenient. By the way a B14 is quite Tasar like but has less freeboard. We had one of those as well. Close your mind to the designer....Frank B*******e. Let me tell you why you need this Tasar to play with. 68kg without rig, very light! The first ever ? foam sandwich hull and way over engineered so very stiff. Deck stepped mast. Very comfy. Good freeboard to poke the pole through and loads of room under the foredeck to play with. You could use the sails but would need to replace the mast cos' it swivels and has no rig tension.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 6:20pm
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A waste to use a Tasar, and I'm not sure its the best platform.
But you know, some of the technical info in this thread seems extraordinarily dubious to me. Anyone reading this in the future, I suggest you apply a large pinch of salt to some posts. |
Posted By: tick
Date Posted: 24 May 13 at 7:26pm
| Well yes Jim....but it is the 'Silly Season'. There is a Cherub on ebay for you as well! |