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NicolaJayne View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by Demelza

Correction; I should have said 'I only question where the ILCA is taking the class' Although unfortunately UKLA is following in the same direction.
 


you really  are not  doing anything to dismiss   the  assertion that you are a Shill for LP, attempting to astroturf about their  counterfeit product.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by Demelza

Correction; I should have said 'I only question where the ILCA is taking the class' Although unfortunately UKLA is following in the same direction.
 


As I see it, ILCA isn't taking the class anywhere. It is exactly where it wants to be. Give or take incremental updates like the Carbon radial mast, it's sticking to what it does best. Strict OD with backward compatibility to legacy boats. Other parts of the world are served by other manufacturers, in Australia and Japan. Nothing has fundamentally changed with those factories' relationship with the CA or WS. UKLA is part and parcel of ILCA, fully signed up to the same ethos, UKLA has no significant difference of opinion with ILCA, over the years the UK has probably had a lot of input to ILCA?

I'd maybe criticise the time it's taken to appoint new builders, but there's been a pandemic and the legal system and 'World-anything' politics don't move quickly. That's probably not been great for some serious  Laser ILCA sailors, now it's trickling down to people like me.

There is no upside for the class in chaiging their rules to accommodate anyone, especially the companies in question. Nobody would benefit from boats coming into high level racing without the QA in place to prove they are on level basis with boats from Japan or Aus. £4k is a lot of money for a boat that turns out slightly slow and no Laser sailor with any self respect wants to be accused of having a faster boat. You can get all that in other classes (including a lot of SMODs).

If you don't like the Laser situation, you have a world of alternatives.
Let's face it, its only real asset is it's extreme OD nature and history. As boat it is a cheap thing from 50 years ago with no single part of it actually fit for the 21st century. I can't think of a single part of it which couldn't be done better now. But for level, 'first over the line is the best sailor' racing it's still pretty good.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by NicolaJayne

Originally posted by Demelza

Correction; I should have said 'I only question where the ILCA is taking the class' Although unfortunately UKLA is following in the same direction.
 


you really  are not  doing anything to dismiss   the  assertion that you are a Shill for LP, attempting to astroturf about their  counterfeit product.  


To call it a 'counterfeit product' implies not understanding that it's the WS plaque and what irepresents which IS THE PRODUCT. It is where a big slice of the value is.

The plaque-less Laser is a perfectly genuine product, but it's just a mediocre boat designed down to a price a long time ago.
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Demelza View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Demelza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by Demelza

  I have absolutely no axe to grind for LP. I only question where the UKLA are taking the class and the the cost of ILCA boats as opposed to an LP Laser which would entirely suit the average club sailor.  

If Rastagar had actually played by the rules, paid the royalties and let someone check he was building the boats properly and consistently (it is an Olympic class after all) the whole sorry mess would not have occurred. And wasn't it LP who started proposing a totally new, different carbon/mylar rig? 

The carbon top section is working out cheaper than the ally ones that the top sailors were bending permanently in no time at all. Who wants to buy 5 top sections a year? No performance gain so club sailors not impacted.

If you're working from a base of fully amortised, sunk production set-up costs, don't (wrongly) pay royalties or ISAF fees, don't invest in the class or provide support, can totally ignore QA and build standards, you probably can, in the short term, bang ‘em out cheap and still make a cash profit. 

You can’t  have it both ways - the class got where it is as a strict SMOD, same for everyone. But if you want to blame something for cost differentials (if there are any, look at new Aero prices) you’re barking up the wrong tree. The issue there is the pact-with-the-devil that is Olympic class status.
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by eric_c

Originally posted by NicolaJayne

Originally posted by Demelza

Correction; I should have said 'I only question where the ILCA is taking the class' Although unfortunately UKLA is following in the same direction.
 


you really  are not  doing anything to dismiss   the  assertion that you are a Shill for LP, attempting to astroturf about their  counterfeit product.  


To call it a 'counterfeit product' implies not understanding that it's the WS plaque and what irepresents which IS THE PRODUCT. It is where a big slice of the value is.

The plaque-less Laser is a perfectly genuine product, but it's just a mediocre boat designed down to a price a long time ago.

Er, but is it? There's no external QA, no commitment to the build-manual that the official builders work to, no royalties paid (for what was it, ten years?). It's as genuine as a knock off "Gucci" handbag or "Rolex" watch bought in a Souk. So that would be a "no" then.

As far as I am concerned, someone who is granted a virtual monopoly on a popular, profitable product, but does not pay the monopoly grantor their (small per boat) dues for a decade is beneath contempt. And by dint of not paying the royalties, they cannot be 'genuine'.

Oh, and even before LP lost their build rights, my boat-park neighbour, who has bought at least 2 200+ sail number Lasers found that the quality was awful, with mast rake several inches different for instance. So not one-design by any stretch
 


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Demelza View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Demelza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:08pm
I think you are missing out some of the history behind the debacle. The Australian builder was producing a boat that was judged to be 'faster'. Foul play was suspected and on investigation the boats were found to be stiffer because they were constructed with addition fibreglass mat and did not thus comply with the builders manual. LP complained to the ILCA that these boats should be ruled out of class. This would effected a few thousand boats so the ILCA did nothing apart from demand to inspect LP premise to check on their boats. Not surprisingly Rastagar got the hump and refused. ILCA 's response was to refuse to license LP boats. 
Imo a stupid thing to do before they had any alternative builder appointed for Europe.  

Also I believe it was not LP but the ILCA that approached an Australian company to trial new rigs. This was instigated, without any reference to the membership, by the yanks who took over the ILCA. Two of whom declared publicly that the days of white sails on the Laser must pass.   
 




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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:20pm
AFAIK there are/have been two separate paths of new rig development for the Laser, one sponsored by LPE (the Arc rig) and the other by ILCA (the C5, C6 & C8). 

Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by NicolaJayne

Originally posted by Demelza

Correction; I should have said 'I only question where the ILCA is taking the class' Although unfortunately UKLA is following in the same direction.
 


you really  are not  doing anything to dismiss   the  assertion that you are a Shill for LP, attempting to astroturf about their  counterfeit product.  

What NJ said

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fab100 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by Demelza

I think you are missing out some of the history behind the debacle. The Australian builder was producing a boat that was judged to be 'faster'. Foul play was suspected and on investigation the boats were found to be stiffer because they were constructed with addition fibreglass mat and did not thus comply with the builders manual. LP complained to the ILCA that these boats should be ruled out of class. This would effected a few thousand boats so the ILCA did nothing apart from demand to inspect LP premise to check on their boats. Not surprisingly Rastagar got the hump and refused. ILCA 's response was to refuse to license LP boats. 
Imo a stupid thing to do before they had any alternative builder appointed for Europe.  

Also I believe it was not LP but the ILCA that approached an Australian company to trial new rigs. This was instigated, without any reference to the membership, by the yanks who took over the ILCA. Two of whom declared publicly that the days of white sails on the Laser must pass.   
 

Conveniently dodging the upped royalties issue.

"Not surprisingly" I beg to differ - in the circumstance you set-out, I'd have thought having inspectors in was absolutely the thing to do. Unless there was something to hide (crap QA, methods, other infractions?)




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Demelza View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Demelza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:25pm
Final word; 
I don't have and would not now buy another either an LP or an ILCA. I'd recommend a RS Aero.  After years of trying they have finally got it right and the boat is obviously waiting in the wings to take over from the Laser/ILCA as the Olympic single-hander.  

Ooh and I'm also in RS's pocket for writing this. Bye.
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