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iGRF View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 May 20 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by tink


Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Neptune

It looked like a good start for the few minutes I watched. A powerful looking boat that’s going to take some strong hiking to get the potential from it so that deck shape and toe strap positions will be critical.


Whereas a trapeze would make for a more pleasant sail, and plug a yawning great hole in the market for an easy single handed light(ish) trap boat. That would be the logical thing, but there's no place for logic in this game, lets just bung another same old, same old, into a crowded market of same olds...

As I frequently post sort PN by numbers of returns in the top 25 there is only one trapeze boat, fireball at 22. Not fully representative of all dinghy sailing but does give an insight into what your average Sunday Warriors sail. 

So why do you think that is?
It's because nobody builds an easy, trapeze boat, they are all either so heavy you need a crane to lift them and are not competitive on inland water, or ridiculously impossible to sail like the RS600,MPS or RS700, simply put there is no competitive single hand trapeze boat suitable for inland use since the demise of the Vortex.
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Neptune View Drop Down
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Posts: 1314 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 20 at 8:21pm
Because an easy to sail trapeze boat on its own would be dull as dishwater, the vortex only lived on because they put a ridiculous kite on it. The Musto isn’t hard to sail, the 600 neither (never sailed a 700). The Farr you have is the lightweight trapeze boat. If you sail inland it’s more about manoeuvrability, you lose more tacking Something like a 300 or a blaze than you ever gain over An aero or the ilk.
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 20 at 8:52pm
Part of the issue is that the venues for clubs that are nice to be members of tend to have waters that are unsuitable for boats with assymetric spinnakers, which seems to be the way to make a boat targeted at performance upwind, interesting to sail downwind.  The other issue with assymetrics is that the production boats that they are on are too heavy, so that they cannot soak downwind, compounding the problem of the limited number of venues where these can sail.

However interesting the Musto skiff appears, I think I would be an absolute liability sailing angles downwind through our crowded harbour.

I did enjoy Luke Patience podcast where he made the case for slower, older classes of boats, which make for a much more interesting tactical experience.

Having said all that, I am a bit of a fan of the Hadron H2 and if I had to foresake one design Solo racing I would be interested in seeing where the Hybrid develops ... the rig looks awesome.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 20 at 9:28pm
You will never convince him its not a plot to keep old classes in production.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 20 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

]Having said all that, I am a bit of a fan of the Hadron H2 and if I had to foresake one design Solo racing I would be interested in seeing where the Hybrid develops ... the rig looks awesome.
Why?
The H2 is a great boat, it's getting traction, albeit slowly but it's getting somewhere, why water it down with something the same but only marginally dfferent? There are lots of great hiking single handers to choose from these days, Even the old munters like the OK are getting a makeover, there are Phantoms, Blaze, D Zero, Aero's, Solutions, Solo's if you must, chucking another in the mix, seems pointless.
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 20 at 10:47pm
..... Whereas of course we'd be especially worried by now if GRFi actually liked it ! (Translation: We've watched with continued amusement all the classes he's associated himself with in the last decade.  Yes - an almost solid record of that 'Reverse Midas' gift does come to mind) LOL




Edited by Cirrus - 18 May 20 at 11:14pm
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 7:22am
I understand where iGRF is coming from here. There are an ever decreasing number of sailors out there to sell to. There are many existing classes that are attracting good fleets. There are new boats already vying for the middle ground (between the slower traditional classes and the newer performance ones) and to add another one to the mix is going to be difficult. Especially with the price that new boats are, to commit to a new one over one that is already gaining traction is going to be difficult. 

Now I'm not saying that the hybrid is not a good looking prospect, I really like the look (well apart from the length of unsupported toestraps) and I'd love to sail one. But then I'd like to sail a H2 as well and if I had to commit to one, I'm afraid that it already has some traction so it would be the latter.

You can say that it takes a brave decision to launch a completely new class and Mike has tried. I wish him luck with this one I really do. Perhaps this is why companies like Ovington have taken traditional classes and run with updating them rather than launching newer designs (apart from the VX range). There is less risk as there is already a customer base. As well as we might wish otherwise (well iGRF anyway) people are cautious on the whole and they will stick with something that already does the job adequately because it already has a fleet.
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 8:01am
I cannot speak for the majority iGRF but I think the reason that the focus is on hiking rather than trapezing is that the majority would rather hike. On the lake I sail on the shifts and gusts make hiking dangerous at times! I recall a Farr visiting us for an open and having what looked like a horrid time, in the end he gave up and just hiked because he was swimming three or four times per beat and this is a small pond!! Most people just prefer it, I know you are going to think I am weird but I actually choose the H2 in part because it was such a nice boat to hike and I enjoy doing it and enjoy training specifically to be able to hike harder and longer.
H2 #115 (sold)
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 8:31am
Originally posted by H2

On the lake I sail on the shifts and gusts make hiking dangerous at times!

I laugh at your shifts and raise them (in a northerly at our club). But I know exactly what you mean. If I sailed at the coast then I'd want a trapeze boat but on a pond hiking wins every time. That said Chris Hampe in his canoe did sail it around our pond at our Icicle open for a couple of years until even he'd had enough. Stayed upright, mostly.
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 9:00am
A decent sized fleet of one design racers is always going to be preferable to me, even if this is not in the perfect boat.  However if that were not available and I had to go handicap racing, I would want to do this in the most fun boat that is appropriate for the water I sail, in which case the number of boats of a class built or number racing would be irrelevant, a beamy sit out singlehander with a challenging rig size would probably be my stead of choice ... I have some scribbles for a "one off" single-hander with smallish wings, self-tacking jib that can be goosewinged and a well for my feet 
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