Change the PY System?

Rather than trying to change the py system itself, which isn't that bad as it can only be based on the figures available which are an average of all the locations and conditions that boats are sailed in, the greater effort should be to change the mindsets of the club's that refuse point blank to adjust the numbers to suit their waters. A simple system like the the py one cannot cope with all the variables if you do not adjust it. Even the rya suggest this. Why do people get so angry with a system when they don't even use it properly.

As for new boats and their pys... What are you supposed to do? I think from all of the new boats we've seen recently it's actually very difficult to ascertain what their number should be across all conditions and locations, I'm not sure that a formula would help.

As someone who is not a statistician I do not understand how you can keep having floating adjustments without at least one fixed reference point, hence the op on the laser. How does this work?

Originally posted by Paramedic I think the reason why the Laser has increased so sharply - having had a readily acknowledged to be lousy handicap for decades - is because there are so many of them out there sailing at all ability levels, all states of decay,  all types of water and in all weather conditions and the new PY calculation system takes that into account. If any class PY should be right its the Laser.  With 200 thousand of the things around its a pretty good bet that we will all sail against a laser once a month if we do any form of handicap racing......

In point of fact, that is untrue.
I have sailed about 3 PY races with one or more Lasers in, in the last 5 years.

One club I raced at had a separate Laser start.
The others split 99% of their races into fast and slow or fast/medium/slow.

It seems to me that many clubs put the split somewhere around 1050 and the long term drift seems to be that many classes on the slow side of the split are growing their PY while those on the fast side are seeing it shrink?

This is the kind of thing that could be undermining the validity of the number crunching.
Maybe the disparity between the theory and what actually happens at clubs is breaking it?

In my view, PY can work a lot better for less diverse boats. It would be interesting to look at the numbers, treating classes in bands.
Trying to rate 400's against Toppers is fairly futile except for events where good sailors will come away happy with a place 3/4 down the fleet.
But we ought to get fairly stable answers for essentially similar boats.

I've read this topic with interest, mainly because I've never felt that the previous discussions reached a conclusion, other than people got fed up of iGRF.

So what do I take out of it?
Well, certainly the existing system has flaws. I'm still not convinced that we want to take the average level for the fleet. In small competitive fleets the PY will always be harsh, whereas large fleets with mixed abilities will always gain an advantage eg. Graduate vs GP14, as there is no way on earth that a top Grad is quicker than a top GP, however I do accept that an average Grad is probably quicker than an average GP.
Being of an engineering background I firmly believe a numerical solution would be available and the likes of Peaky have to some extent shown this, however its somewhat easier to fit prediction models around an existing model rather than starting a fresh.
We also have to remember that while something might be possible it doesn't necessarily transfer to being useable. If we go fully digital, big data, IOT, then many small clubs run by ageing volunteers will not be able to keep up with the technology needs. I would bet my assets that most clubs are still using paper to record finishing times (then transfer to Sailwave later) and that the transfer to PY online is a once a year chore.
While the RYA expect clubs to adjust numbers, most are not confident to do so, and generally accept that some boats are bandits and if required will win. How can this be changed?
Now I know it's easier to install RFid on gokarts, runners and horses but the must be a way of syncing digital start technologies with finish line tracking, or using some simple image recognition software hooked up to a video camera. The problem is how do you standardise and simplify?
Even if you develop the use of new technologies will it improve racing at your club?
One thing is clear, I have a vision but I have no confidence either in local sailing clubs nor the RYA, but I will continue to enjoy my sailing.


Edited by craiggo - 25 Jul 17 at 1:27pm