Having a fixed comparator may seem attractive at first sight, but what is the actual benefit? All that matters is that the relatives remain correct.

And you then create the problem, that others have raised that if your fixed point moves, as it can legitimately under PY you have to fiddle everything else.

It's worth reading http://www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/Yacht-Rating-Success-Failure-Against-Competitors-Bucksea/0952947803/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1500665001&sr=8-1&keywords=yacht+rating" rel="nofollow - 'Yacht Rating' by Peter Johnson just to understand how much the search for a perfect sailing handicap system is a futile one. But it has occupied many a mind in both inventiveness and protection of vested interests. A fab book.

All this hysteria is totally unnecessary, PY is not set in stone, clubs can locally adjust.

As sailing sec, I am tasked with this role.  It is tedious, thankless and often nothing more than personal handicapping. 

What do you mean by this TT?  All boats are riddled with variables, but they all only have a single PY.  

The downsides of this approach are a. The subjective nature of the personal handicap, b. The fact that the personal handicap part has already established who the best sailors are, so why bother racing, c. It takes a lot of effort, d. There are lots of complaints. 

That's an impressively rigorous approach, and sounds like a lot of work.

I have to ask, and this is a genuine question, do you think there are real benefits from doing it? Does it improve competition/member satisfaction etc?

+1 per degree of heel 

Which means the current system is broke.  Or maybe it's just like democracy - the worst form of handicapping, except for all the other forms that have been tried from time to time.

Strikes me it's just like real life, far from perfect all the time but sometimes you get lucky. 

It has been said that Clubs won't locally adjust because it is too much work and causes more arguments. Well that tells a story of what a pain the whole affair is, for one I'm grateful for all the work PYAG an'll do that means I can simply sail to a national system.

To my mind it is all bluster and bar talk about knack all, small percentages really. I can understand why people obsess about it but of course they're simply wrong

It is the contradiction that puzzles me; it is plainly obvious that no system can ever fairly rate all boats over all wind strengths and venues. So if you care about results that much search out or build class racing and if you don't care enough to do that and prefer billy no mates sailing why are you making such a fuss.

If you're a sailor you'll sail what you fancy primarily for the joy of it and if you're a racer it's class racing or PY and take it like a grown up.

   

previous genesis of the PY system have appeared to  use a scratch boat , but it assumes that the scratch boat  does not move  performance wise ... 

To paraphrase  "all agree.. never be perfect" "believe are current failings" "possibly improve it". Sounds like a proposal to change one imperfect system for another imperfect but different system.

My concern is that it dominates and distracts thinking from sailing and gives newcomers something of a sideshow to worry about when there is so much more that influences your racing results. 

"status quo quietly suits" nope, not really, if I want know how I'm doing I'll go to a class meeting.

I applaud your Club's initiative to tweak the numbers to encourage people to sail/race. You have managed to turn the bar conversation from one of carping about numbers into how to sail better  next week. 

Whilst there are many (me included) who might despair at some of the exchanges on the issue of PY setting, we ought to be thankful that the 'troublesome' posts are made, because they give us a chance to think about what is happening. It certainly highlights the anomalies that pepper the PY system and yes, the Laser is a good example. The boat is a strict one design and if you take the performance of the boat since the XD upgrade, it should be a given (it may of course change with the new top section). There may well be statistical evidence that the 2017 Laser is faster, slower or the same as the 2014 Laser but surely this is more the result of how the boat is being sailed rather than a fundamental change in the boats performance. Compare this with the restricted development classes - 12, 14s, Merlins etc. There you are, happily sailing your 2014 boat when along comes the latest whizz bang design that is a quicker boat. The PY then changes to reflect the performance of the new make up in the fleet....but the guy sailing his 2014 boat has suddenly found that statistically at least, his boat has magically got faster - except that it hasn't. But what are these statistics, how are they applied and more importantly, how are they interpreted (and by whom).

Without realising it, iGRF has highlighted a far deeper issue within the PY system as a whole, an issue that is more philosophical in nature than the mere technical.

Is it time for a complete rethink on the topic of PYs. Here in the UK, the one design racing horse has long bolted, leaving the sport of dinghy racing almost dependant on PY races.

Could there be a better way to sort out a method of racing disparate boats together - something completely different, rather than just changing the year on the top of the list and shuffling a few numbers about? The problem is; until you ask the question and put the challenge out there, you will never know. Rather than the 'Ventnor Version' being one of a number of new system that could pop up like mushrooms (and yes, you feed them on S**t too) maybe this is a positive action that the RYA could take because if we believe that the PY system is as is and will be so for ever and ever, Amen, then we're in trouble!

D

PS: "I am not a number" - the working title on my Y&Y.com missive on the topic, is now 'active'. If anyone has any strong views, ideas , suggestions - feel free to send them in and I'll try to include them into the text. 

Dougal - you illustrate my point nicely.  The big beef with the Laser PY seems to be that the boat has had an upgrade and  should be faster, but the PY has increased by 12 points since 2013 implying that performance is slower.  But of course 2013 is about the time that the inertia in PY was reduced.  So it may be that PY is correcting out a 20 PY point overspeed in 2013 and then an 8 point XD driven increase in speed.  Or not.  More of a factor might be the performance demographic of the 25000 less race results in a laser between 2013 and 2016.

Which illustrates the fallacy behind the idea of a fixed scratch boat when the system is based on retrospective analysis of results.

Debate is good.  But I haven't seen anything that:

A.  Really convinces me the patient is ill.

B.  Deals with my concern that the medicine will kill the patient before it kills him.

well written 

So you fixed point suddenly is not so fixed.

That and add in that the Laser probably has the broadest spread of talent of any OD class... still seem like a good idea?

In theory yes it is a good idea to have a fixed point but where would you fix that point?

In reality the only thing clubs can do is look at their local regular sailors and see what seems to work and what doesn't. You have to be careful to avoid a personal handicap though. when i got my D-Zero there was a lot of complaining that I was winning. when I said go look at my previous results in a Laser.... (where I was still winning, not bad for an old duffer) the grumblings suddenly got very quiet.

As for adjusting. On the lake i sail on anything with a kite is ridiculously handicapped due to the length of the legs. There just is not time to get the kite hoisted and working effectively to make up the time you inevitably lose on the hoist and drop compared to a single hander that just accelerates off the mark and pulls enouhg of a gap to keep the kits boat behind them.

So I don't think the PY system needs changing wholsale, what is needed is for clubs to look at their local sailing a bit closer and work out a PY. Maybe even find toher clubs that are similar in terms of water size and put the results together in an effort to try and take out the personal element.

For example Club A and Club B have similar sized water. Club A has a very competitive Solo fleet with guys who are placing well at Open level and getting close to the Top 10 nationally. They win a lot this is causing grumbles at Club A about a favoured handicap. Club B also has a Solo fleet. They are competitive at a local level but rarely place at an Open or at the Nationals. Put those results together and a small tweak might be merited but I would say on average that the PY wont be too far out. Maybe Club A might tweak a few points faster and B might go a few points slower (which in reality will make no difference but will stop the grumbles).

I've just had a look at the last race in our Wed series and we have a similar difference between the fastest and slowest Lasers.

I can't claim to have ever been a top guy.... but I have ticked the Tactick box on the order form when buying new boats.  In all honesty they have only ever really proved to be a distraction at best, at worst a awkwardly located countdown timer to remind me I'm still three rows back when the gun goes.  

After successive tactic optional upgrades, including custom mounts (in carbon FFS), I went analogue on my Solo - Silva 73R optimist style.... it was the right choice.  

Oh, and if the blokes with TickTacks didn't have them who's to say they wouldn't be 17% slower? 

No it's to compensate for the differences in performance of the boats and, as you say, "end up as a base comparison between boats sailed by equal ability crews" 

The bit I don't quite understand is how a boat like the Solo, which adds a not insignificant 100ish new (mainly FRP with laminate sails I think) boats to the fleet every year gets slower according to the PY. I know there are lots of older boats, with older sails sailed at club level but with a significant number of new boats being added to the fleet each year I cant quite see how the 'base' Solo has gotten slower compared to boats around unless the crew skill factor is skewing it.

Many of those new boats, most likely, sail in Solo fleets rather than handicap races so don't affect the returns. In the same way that many new Lasers sail predominantly in class events leaving the handicap racing to the 'B fleet' sailors? The vast majority of returns come from club racing (simply because there is an order of magnitude more of it than handicap open meetings). Most (not all) club racing is by sailors who wouldn't trouble the chocolates at a National Championship so it's to be expected that the PN will represent those sailors not the hot shots (and I'm sure I read somewhere that the PY calculations discard the best and worst results to prevent anomalies caused by Sir Ben turning up at Yottingham on Sea Sailing Club and joining in the menagerie.....).

And I'd add that mid fleet sailors are not usually masters at spotting wind shifts, a TackTick should definitely help them spot shifts more accurate/frequently. If they get 10% better at spotting favourable shifts they will definitely get 'round the course faster.

What you have to keep in mind is that, without a reference boat, PY is relative.  The Solo number (and Laser number) may have gone up, but that doesn't mean it's getting slower.  It might be getting quicker, but at a slower rate than most other classes. With the current system we will never know, though it does seem unlikely. But this is an observation you can't make without being accused of disrespecting hard working families. 

No one has ever been annoyed by a reasoned comment about the PY system have they? People like you and Dougal have made properly-argued criticisms of the PY and no one has given you grief for it.

Some of us do get annoyed at moronic, abusive and childish claims that the PY organisers are behaving in a deceptive fashion, but that's completely different to reasoned comment.

 With 200 thousand of the things around its a pretty good bet that we will all sail against a laser once a month if we do any form of handicap racing. I accept the argument that the examples which would be better used as a traffic island feature and using sails that would look good on the Mary Rose will artificially hold back the average, but this is actually more likely to happen with Bill in his 50 year old Heron who is still using the cotton sails supplied with his build kit. 

I think the idea could have legs and might be worth looking at closer - I doubt but will get anywhere though, and to be honest will it actually change anything? Are the numbers that broken?

I can but thank you all (yes, even iGRF) for firstly giving the inspiration and rationale to pull the article up the running order - it had always been there but was further back, following pieces on *** ***** and In********* ************ . Knowingly or otherwise, you've also provided a rich source of ideas for me to follow but increasingly, the working title of "I am not a number" (how apt that we have become a 'Prisoner' to a number') is my signpost that I will follow to make sure that the topic gets a full airing.

Many of the posts on here still seem fixated though on the minutiae of how the current system works (or doesn't; that will have to be a part of the investigation, a look at how well things really do work/or otherwise) under the current regime.  

Personally, I find it hard to accept that with the incredible degree of innovation found in our sport (which those of you who read my articles will know is a recurring theme) that something totally new, a radical rethink of how we race disparate boats, is impossible to arrive at. Dan Holman gave some clues, others have had clever ideas but one of the questions I'd have to ask is "if a new system COULD be invented, would there be entrenched resistance to clubs adopting it?" Feel free to add comments, I'll read them and sneakily make notes on those that add value!

D/Ventnor, Isle of Wight

I cannot remember what his system proposed for the D-Zero (or even if he did estimate it), perhaps if he comes across this he could give an idea.

The other problem with using measurement is that you will get some clever sod of a boat builder builder who will come up with a design that will exploit the measurement and end up making a mockery of it.

Having an element of CSF/using results to generate a number is a good idea even if it is a little unreliable at times.

In class racing, we generally accept the best sailor in the best boat usually stands the best chance of winning.  We can upgrade our boat, or key bits of it like sails, foils etc, and we expect a performance boost, once we get them dialled-in any way.   We can limit the impact of this 'boat effect' by choosing SMODS, verses say high intensity development classes; but in general, whatever class we choose, we pretty much accept that if you buy a better version of that class, you increase your performance relative to the average performance of the fleet.   

PY attempts to normalise this effect by referencing the average performance of one class grouping with all others.  Once you accept that this is ALWAYS going to provide a compromise from a purist racing point of view, then you can move forward and focus on the positives of a handicap system that analyses real world results, not theoretical boat specifcations: 

- inclusivity, buy the right boat for your fitness and body type

- options to sail what you want, even "new classes" aren't treated badly (any moaning from Aero or Zero sailors about the current system here?  No.... they all generally accept ENs and the refinement that will follow as results data builds) 

- Vibe: if conducted in the right spirit, handicap racing provides a more light-hearted approach to spending time on the water bashing cans with mates.  

To address Mike's earlier question - does the status quo suit those of us who currently don't want to handicap race?  No, not at all.  We are all for continuous improvement and sharing good practice- but some of us also acknowledge the vast leap forward that can seen over the past decade with the whole system, which is why when those who have been so instrumental in making those improvements get accused of corruption and have their integrity questioned, we are quite ready to point out the gargantuan flaws in 'the alternative methodologies' their accusers put forward as some wünder-cure.  

I may not want to sail in handicap races currently, but that doesn't mean I want to see it utterly torn to shreds.  It is what remains the only option for racing at some clubs, seeing this utterly fractured by a seismic change with winners and losers post-change, sounds to me like a great way to decimate numbers well below critical mass to sustain the sport ongoing.   

Jeffers. Indeed and full marks to Peaky for that 'head above the parapet' moment! But seeing that you were the first person to respond to my post.... you get the chocolates for highlighting exactly some of the questions that OUGHT to be asked - and by the people who run the sport and not just the keyboard warriors on here. As I said in an earlier post, some of the discussion is becoming almost philosophical in it's content. What should the PY system do? Is it a measure of the boat or the boat and the crew sailing it (what if you had an 'inappropriate' helm in a boat - a Phantom sized helm in a......British Moth; is he allowed to struggle or does he get help from the PY?). This has to be right at the heart of the discussion! Do you have an 'interventionist' policy that says that  if it is breezy, then the PYs of boats like the Fireball and 420 take a hit, or do you leave the numbers as is and accept that every dog will have his day - one day, when the conditions suit!

I do not profess to have any answers but that is not the point! Is there an answer out there sounds better, but only if someone is asking the question in the first place. Given that here in the UK our sport has become beholden by the majority to some form of mixed fleet sailing, surely that then places a greater need for the development of better, more insightful systems. or maybe it doesn't and what we have now is the best that there is. It's just...... that notion sticks in my craw  as the easy get out answer of "it's good enough for them".

D/Ventnor, Isle of Wight

So Graeme:

On a scale of one to ten, one being a top flight contender in Garda on flying boats this week; 10 being your first few times in a dinghy, might sit on the side if their confidence is up to it; I'm guessing I'd rate about a 7. 

Which would mean you'd rate somewhere between 8 and 9  ... could your ego handle it??? 

Life is too short, particularly for this Solo sailor 

Originally posted by Rupert Originally posted by A2Z Sorry, I just get fed up with the "it'll never be perfect so there's no point trying to improve things, and they're volunteers don't you know" line of argument.    So, the assumption that the PYAG aren't trying to improve things is one I find odd, given how many changes there have been recently. The "they are volunteers, don't you know" arguement I agree is spurious, but paid or unpaid, they deserve respect for the work they are doing.

To use my medical treatment analogy:

The PYAG have taken steps to improve things.  Unfortunately the treatment that was the changes in 2013 (ish) which reduced PY inertia is (rightly) taking time to do its job.  The patient is in remission, but there are some high profile side effects in terms of counter intuitive changes.

So philosophically:

I don't want an interventionist policy that changes PY numbers according to conditions.  Putting aside the impracticality of such a system given that conditions change (remember IMS anyone?) the logical extension of this position would be to have similar intervention for big or small crews in one-design fleets.  I want my sailing (and the results) to reflect the conditions, not have them filtered out.

It would be great if it could be 'the boat' but for all sorts of reasons many, but not all of which are covered in this thread, I do not believe that this is achievable without a complete rebuild of the sport top down.  And again that would risk killing the patient before it improves.

So an evidence (which means statistical analysis of results) based approach is the best way to go.  How could it be improved?  More results doesn't necessarily create 'better' PY numbers but it does start to reduce the potential impact of CSF, which, I think hits some craft hard - like the RS300, or the Graduate - faster than a GP14!  Really?

Originally posted by Peaky Hello, I've seen my name crop up a couple of times. I've been reading from the beginning, but am not going to offer a view on PY methods. It's like religion, some take it on faith, some are non believers and some want to investigate the truth scientifically. These three groups will never reach a consensus and so discussion is best avoided for the sake of world peace.

Peaky - what does interest me is how much difference a change in weight or sail area makes to a Peaky number.

For an example:

When I were a lad the Graduate sailed off 124 and the GP14 off, I think, 118, maybe 119.  Now the Grad is 4 points faster (0.4 in old money).  How much of that would be down to the increase in sail area by Peaky number reckoning?

why not set PY to suit wind strength, we all know boats that go in a blow and boats that go in a drifter.

We have a black book of courses to suit wind direction for inexperienced race officers, it wouldn't take much more to add wind strengths and boats that will benefit, etc.

The PN should reflect the boat in some way, not the conditions or ability of the crew. The purpose being to allow different classes of boat to compete on a level playing field. This, in theory, means that two different boats sailed by two sets of hypothetical (or cloned) twins who happen to be exactly equal in sailing ability and each the perfect (or equally imperfect) weight and build for their boat would, averaged out over a range of sailing conditions and courses, end up in a perfect tie. Thus it is the sailors ability which makes the difference and the best sailor wins. 

He practices a lot and has got better. His results have gone from nowhere to somewhere. With respect most people who can't sail their boat to its PY are just pretty ordinary- or alternatively the conditions that they are sailing in do not favour the boat eg a Contender on a river or a British Moth on the sea...

Exactly and that is why the PYC suggest clubs adjust PNs to take local conditions into consideration. Personal handicaps are another matter entirely and should be nothing to do with the PY number.
 

Appreciated and not trying to draw you in....but given that it correlates with observed results I thought it interesting to see what the answer was.  I'm now confused about whether 10 sqm was the old or is the new sail area for the Grad....I'll get there.

and there ladies and gentlemen, do we have the root cause of the PY bitching, a delusional, over-exaggerated rating of ability combined with a total ignorance about how talented and practiced circuit sailors are, never mind the top echelon.

The only cure, short of a Total Perspective Vortex, is to drop Graeme into a top spec Solo, Fireball, 14, Laser Radial for each of their Nationals, plus Salcombe Merlin Week. We'd spare you the humiliation of a Moth Worlds like at Garda currently. Applying TTs scale, iGRF implies he'd be twenties in a hundred boat fleet. TT suggests he'd be in twenties from the back. I know which way I'd bet.

So Graeme, that is your mechanism to prove it; not by the usual ad hominem attack of telling me you'll come to Frensham and beat me (unlikely but so what) but against the top sailors in the top classes in the heat of proper competition. Until that is done and you prove otherwise, I (and probably others) will continue to believe that over a season you get, on PY, about the results you deserve.

You might also then realise that any form of handicap racing cannot be taken too seriously and even that 'winning' without context is a false metric.

and does that provide variable tides or confused waves, or a chop? Or disturbed air from trees, river banks, cliffs etc. Or even the sun in your eyes as you focus on the kite-luff.

The current PY system also, inherently, factors in that slower boats are often in the dirty-air and wash of faster boats. A 'pure' rating system will look at each boat in isolation. But handicap races are not time-trials, we are all out there together, giving and receiving confused wind and water.

Slower boats also suffer more in tide. 

Hence, notwithstanding all the other reasons it won't work, even a mythical perfect rating will mean that, with sailors putting in equal performances, the faster boat will always win.

And this is an improvement how? 

Theres always one exception 

One of the clubs I sail at have a Laser start, but work out the "overalls" from the class results and use this to make a return so whilst you dont race against them you get rated against them.

I can only think of one club round here that hasn't got a laser in the dinghy park (South Staffs) so for the most part I stand by my remark :) 

That's missing the point somewhat. Those are all issues of a single number system, like we have now and like most people would want to keep even if that single number was produced in a different way.  

Certainly is. We split our Morning handicap race in to fast and slow. But then in the afternoons when the classes with fleet status get a class start all the PY boats are in 1 fleet. PYs ranging from 950 or so through to 1655 (Optimist). The Optimists usually do pretty well....