New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Lasers
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Lasers
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 12>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Demelza View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 01 Aug 21
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 31 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Demelza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lasers
    Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by Demelza

  I have absolutely no axe to grind for LP. I only question where the UKLA are taking the class and the the cost of ILCA boats as opposed to an LP Laser which would entirely suit the average club sailor.  

If Rastagar had actually played by the rules, paid the royalties and let someone check he was building the boats properly and consistently (it is an Olympic class after all) the whole sorry mess would not have occurred. And wasn't it LP who started proposing a totally new, different carbon/mylar rig? 

The carbon top section is working out cheaper than the ally ones that the top sailors were bending permanently in no time at all. Who wants to buy 5 top sections a year? No performance gain so club sailors not impacted.

If you're working from a base of fully amortised, sunk production set-up costs, don't (wrongly) pay royalties or ISAF fees, don't invest in the class or provide support, can totally ignore QA and build standards, you probably can, in the short term, bang ‘em out cheap and still make a cash profit. 

You can’t  have it both ways - the class got where it is as a strict SMOD, same for everyone. But if you want to blame something for cost differentials (if there are any, look at new Aero prices) you’re barking up the wrong tree. The issue there is the pact-with-the-devil that is Olympic class status.
Back to Top
eric_c View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 21 Jan 18
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by NicolaJayne

Originally posted by Demelza

Correction; I should have said 'I only question where the ILCA is taking the class' Although unfortunately UKLA is following in the same direction.
 


you really  are not  doing anything to dismiss   the  assertion that you are a Shill for LP, attempting to astroturf about their  counterfeit product.  


To call it a 'counterfeit product' implies not understanding that it's the WS plaque and what irepresents which IS THE PRODUCT. It is where a big slice of the value is.

The plaque-less Laser is a perfectly genuine product, but it's just a mediocre boat designed down to a price a long time ago.
Back to Top
eric_c View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 21 Jan 18
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by Demelza

Correction; I should have said 'I only question where the ILCA is taking the class' Although unfortunately UKLA is following in the same direction.
 


As I see it, ILCA isn't taking the class anywhere. It is exactly where it wants to be. Give or take incremental updates like the Carbon radial mast, it's sticking to what it does best. Strict OD with backward compatibility to legacy boats. Other parts of the world are served by other manufacturers, in Australia and Japan. Nothing has fundamentally changed with those factories' relationship with the CA or WS. UKLA is part and parcel of ILCA, fully signed up to the same ethos, UKLA has no significant difference of opinion with ILCA, over the years the UK has probably had a lot of input to ILCA?

I'd maybe criticise the time it's taken to appoint new builders, but there's been a pandemic and the legal system and 'World-anything' politics don't move quickly. That's probably not been great for some serious  Laser ILCA sailors, now it's trickling down to people like me.

There is no upside for the class in chaiging their rules to accommodate anyone, especially the companies in question. Nobody would benefit from boats coming into high level racing without the QA in place to prove they are on level basis with boats from Japan or Aus. £4k is a lot of money for a boat that turns out slightly slow and no Laser sailor with any self respect wants to be accused of having a faster boat. You can get all that in other classes (including a lot of SMODs).

If you don't like the Laser situation, you have a world of alternatives.
Let's face it, its only real asset is it's extreme OD nature and history. As boat it is a cheap thing from 50 years ago with no single part of it actually fit for the 21st century. I can't think of a single part of it which couldn't be done better now. But for level, 'first over the line is the best sailor' racing it's still pretty good.
Back to Top
NicolaJayne View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 01 Mar 19
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 109 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NicolaJayne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by Demelza

Correction; I should have said 'I only question where the ILCA is taking the class' Although unfortunately UKLA is following in the same direction.
 


you really  are not  doing anything to dismiss   the  assertion that you are a Shill for LP, attempting to astroturf about their  counterfeit product.  
Back to Top
Mark Aged 42 View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 24 Aug 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 98 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mark Aged 42 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 12:51pm
The other issue with the old Lasers at the back of the boat park is that they are essentially money pits and are therefore not part of the second hand boat market. Even for free, they will probably need a new cover, new trolley wheels, a new sail (these boats inevitably only have a blown out standard rig) and a better dagger board. If they need XD kit as well, then better to buy a regularly sailed boat.
Back to Top
Demelza View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 01 Aug 21
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 31 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Demelza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 12:43pm
Correction; I should have said 'I only question where the ILCA is taking the class' Although unfortunately UKLA is following in the same direction.
 
Back to Top
Demelza View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 01 Aug 21
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 31 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Demelza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by Demelza

  I have absolutely no axe to grind for LP. I only question where the UKLA are taking the class and the the cost of ILCA boats as opposed to an LP Laser which would entirely suit the average club sailor.  

If Rastagar had actually played by the rules, paid the royalties and let someone check he was building the boats properly and consistently (it is an Olympic class after all) the whole sorry mess would not have occurred. And wasn't it LP who started proposing a totally new, different carbon/mylar rig? 

The carbon top section is working out cheaper than the ally ones that the top sailors were bending permanently in no time at all. Who wants to buy 5 top sections a year? No performance gain so club sailors not impacted.

If you're working from a base of fully amortised, sunk production set-up costs, don't (wrongly) pay royalties or ISAF fees, don't invest in the class or provide support, can totally ignore QA and build standards, you probably can, in the short term, bang ‘em out cheap and still make a cash profit. 

You can’t  have it both ways - the class got where it is as a strict SMOD, same for everyone. But if you want to blame something for cost differentials (if there are any, look at new Aero prices) you’re barking up the wrong tree. The issue there is the pact-with-the-devil that is Olympic class status.
Back to Top
eric_c View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 21 Jan 18
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by H2



Perhaps its just the clubs I visit but the boat park is normally full of Lasers that have not been sailed for years; there must be thousands or perhaps 10s of thousands that were not sailed last year so why do people keep paying club fees rather than sell them on? Never worked that one out

Separate issue really. Understand a few individuals who own those boats and you'll maybe find it's quite diverse  You've got the 'nth' boat syndrome, where people keep a Laser in case they want to sail but have no crew. A Laser only devalues by a few hundred a year worst case. A lot of people intend to sail but don't get out much, even without pandemics. A lot of people find social value in their club, with or without the sailing. Then there's all the hopeful dads who keep the Laser hoping the kids will sail it. Some people are happy to bung £50 extra to their club to have a boat at the back of the field, it's money to their club which they don't resent.Also inertia is a very powerful thing, I've got various other toys I could probably sell but haven't made the break. The world is full of bicycles, classic cars, motorbikes and god knows what else that people have bought but rarely use. How many people fail to get value for money out of bigger things like yachts or campervans or holiday homes?
Back to Top
fab100 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 15 Mar 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by eric_c

I have an issue with not being able to upgrade my boat to a less clapped out one, but alas, it's an issue I'm vaguely willing to spend £2k on, not £5k, i.e. I want a boat worth about £3k as an upgrade, not a £6k one. Likewise my boat is not for sale, so someone wanting a usable boat for a grand is out of luck. Many of the familiar voices on this subject have no skin in the game at all. 

Me too. My Laser is the equivalent of a taxi that's done 500,000 miles  (I've worn thru the gelcoat on the gunwale edge where you sit out, for instance).

But its not just lasers, look on apollo duck or FB dinghies and bits for sale and there's a very little for sale in any class considering how many boats are sitting in boat parks totally unused. But at the same time, those that are for sale second hand are at prices similar to 3-4 years ago, whereas the cost of new has risen 30% to 50%. You'd expect a lack of supply to increase prices but that does not seem to be the case. It's a weird market, but we are in weird times I suppose.

And don't get me going on a road base now being £850+, not £350. A trolley alone for the 100 is now £500
Great book for Club Sailors here
Back to Top
eric_c View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 21 Jan 18
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 11:56am
It's fairly irrelevant whether your local club will let you race your LP Laser in the ILCA fleet, if you're willing and able to spend £4k on your sailing, you'd be better off investing in your skills, which means getting out of your small pond and sailing open events, training events, a nationals or something. Then you will understand the value in the 'class system'. I fancy doing a few Masters' events or something, kind of a last ditch attempt to learn what I can before getting a bus pass and a Beneteau....
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy