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    Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 3:27pm
Most club have a swap system and fines. Then behind the scenes most I imagine have a certain amount of black market payments for carrying out duties. Seems the best way to handle it. 

Actually setting up a market and putting a value on a duty so that it all works would be an administrative nightmare.  
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 3:00pm
Why the dichotomy - personally I wouldn’t mind topping up my pension with a stint on a committee boat- beats the sh*t out of pushing pallets of cement around at the builders merchant like I did as student
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Posts: 135 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Eisvogel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

If some members want to buy themselves out of duties there will no doubt be others who would be very happy to be paid .. or receive a worthwhile reduction in their own membership cost. 

Not sure about other clubs, but for the club I'm at that would be the end. It'd drive a dividing line through the membership into the 'first class' members, who pay more and just show up to sail, and the 'second class' members who do all the legwork and probably then don't even find the time to sail (or are too busy doing the duties that the others paid their way out of).

And, tbh, I'd rather be the same among equals than on either side of such a divide. I'd rather have a smaller club full of active and committed members than a larger club where half the people treat the other half as their servants, just because they pay more. Because in the long run there'd be no-one left.
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Posts: 246 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by eric_c

Originally posted by JohnJack

...

The problem is, sailing isn't really a "club" sport. A club is really just a place to sail. Unlike other sports, which are possibly more team based where you would have First Team, Second Team and so on and so on sailing in crew boats tends to be because your are just good mates who sail together (for the most part).

I agree. I've been involved with a few different 'inter-club' things over the years, they often seem to breed resentment and apathy in the club that gets thrashed and people who don't make the team.
The arguments about the best way to score an event where some clubs could field 10 boats and others only 5, when each clubs uses their own munged PY scale, can go on a long time.

That's not really the issue. 
I have been playing with event data for the last two years to try and devise some sort of National League. The results so far are published here www.sailnation.co.uk.

Thus far I only Have Helm and Crew, however I have the data for Clubs that the sailors have entered under too (where it has been supplied) Based on the sum of the top 3 results per club per event, the top 15 looks something like this

1. Grafham Water
2. Hayling Island
3. Burghfield
4. Stokes Bay
5. Netley
6. Datchet Water
7. Leigh & Lowton
8. Warsash
9. Draycote Water
10. Staunton Harold
11. Northampton
12. West Lancs
13. Parkstone
14. Delph
15. Rutland

The problem is the data and behaviour of the sailors.

The data is horrendously inaccurate and inconsistent, eg name spellings for example we have Pete Gray (of Scorpion fame) as Pete Gray, Peter Gray, Pete Grey, Peter Grey at different events, add to this where you have multiple people with the same name Scorpion sailor Andy McKee and N12 sailor Andy McKee for example (think we have two Steve Grahams (the P&B sailmaker and the Solo sailor) too as well as spelling mistakes it gets a bit nightmarish.
Also we have results where a sailor has entered under two or three different clubs, happens allot when someone is also RNSA (Royal Navy Sailing Association). 4 is the record so far (for a single hander, someone had 4 clubs listed next to their name in the results).

We also have entries where the club is recorded as just initials as well, this could relate easily to a handful of different clubs

BSC for example
Bolton,Budworth,Burwain,Burghfield I could go on and on

LLSC is one that pops up a fair bit, there is a Leigh & Lowton up near Warrington and one down the the South West somewhere I think





Edited by JohnJack - 30 Jan 18 at 2:18pm
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 1:58pm
We are in broad alignment Mike - especially around reducing fees or offering credit for those who are prepared to put more time in.
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 1:44pm
TT - so your concern with re-statement of what should have been blindingly obvious is what exactly  ?

If people don't like the current offering in relation to dinghy sailing clubs then they can do something else - or start their own related business.  Somehow I doubt the latter.   The sport will change and clubs need to adapt, reduce their costs where possible and obviously reduce in number through consolidation.   If some members want to buy themselves out of duties there will no doubt be others who would be very happy to be paid .. or receive a worthwhile reduction in their own membership cost. 

Clubs really do need to grasp this latter point rather than simply taking the 'bonus' income and passing on added pressure for replacemenst onto those who already do their share.   

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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

 For all the rhetoric here the hypothetical commercial provider model are plainly non-investable on any scale for the foreseeable.

which was precisely my original point...  

Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by 423zero

One section of article mentioned a return to pre war elitist sailing for the fairly wealthy, can't see how this could happen,
 

Its fairly easy to imagine clubs with paid staff and no duties or other volunteer requirements from the members, and thus matching membership fees. Indeed I've seen it advocated here. Once the membership fees are up in the sky the rest sorts itself out.
 

As an advocate of that very model, I’m sadly still firmly of the belief there isn’t the ROI for it to work... yet.


Edited by turnturtle - 30 Jan 18 at 12:52pm
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 12:19pm
Clubs need to adapt and change - sure but in the end they always have.  The sport will be smaller in the future and consolidation is likely - that is a given.  Those that say they want 'commercial' club-like services will have to set up businesses themselves, stump up when others try or simply put up. 

For all the rhetoric here the hypothetical commercial provider model are plainly non-investable on any scale for the foreseeable.
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by JohnJack

...

The problem is, sailing isn't really a "club" sport. A club is really just a place to sail. Unlike other sports, which are possibly more team based where you would have First Team, Second Team and so on and so on sailing in crew boats tends to be because your are just good mates who sail together (for the most part).

I agree. I've been involved with a few different 'inter-club' things over the years, they often seem to breed resentment and apathy in the club that gets thrashed and people who don't make the team.
The arguments about the best way to score an event where some clubs could field 10 boats and others only 5, when each clubs uses their own munged PY scale, can go on a long time.
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Posts: 246 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 11:20am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Originally posted by Eisvogel

Perhaps what could help is something they started in Germany a few years back: the Sailing Bundesliga (only we would call it the "Cat o' Nine Tails Championship" or something similar), where clubs battle it out in a league format. Might attract more people to their local clubs, as they'd identify more with a club at their location than with an individual sailor.
Late to this. But the RYA started the keelboat league last year. Happening again this year. 

The problem is, sailing isn't really a "club" sport. A club is really just a place to sail. Unlike other sports, which are possibly more team based where you would have First Team, Second Team and so on and so on sailing in crew boats tends to be because your are just good mates who sail together (for the most part).
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