SNAKES!
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12966
Printed Date: 04 Jul 25 at 5:04pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: SNAKES!
Posted By: craiggo
Subject: SNAKES!
Date Posted: 22 Jan 18 at 2:33pm
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Following the first article which I found to be overly aggressive, harsh and somewhat one sided, this follow up seemed a lot more balanced and weighed up some of the genuine reasons for decline and also where the support has picked up.
What is interesting, and I'm not sure if it will be captured in the next article is how some of these classes that have suffered what looked like non recoverable crashes have seemingly risen from the ashes, while those that this article hails as improving the recent situation are now struggling. I guess these are short term fluctuations and need to be considered carefully against the longer-term view. ------------- OK 2129 RS200 411 |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Jan 18 at 3:35pm
| I think the biggest thing that the article misses is the way not only the high performance, but also the low performance classes have collapsed and there is a much higher percentage of boats in the moderate performance bands. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Jan 18 at 3:38pm
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I can't see a problem with some of the high performance classes turning professional, after seeing the way Star sailors league works, can't see how this will increase decline in sailing or indeed if it will reverse decline. I sail at a club approaching cliff edge, majority of members well past retirement, all committee members are from this group, what to do about it is the problem ? Reducing number of clubs will bring us closer to that demographic cliff edge, majority of our older members would not start again at another club.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Jan 18 at 4:40pm
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It's always interesting reading something from an insiders perspective as to 'what went wrong' in this instance I think he jumps about in time a bit, you can't mix the seventies with now, it was such a totally different era, and you can't ignore that in this sports desperate protectionism it brings about it's own demise time and again.
In my mind in recent times two things contributed to decline and they were the breakdown brought about by the Assym period of the nineties and the battle against it and the rush to roto mould of the early noughties. My view is that with having finally spotted the problem, the combination of boats like the Aero/Zero and the lipstick application to the turkey classes, finally that 'too difficult to bother with anyway' part of the three things that make the sport less accessible has been dealt with and 'they' who would supply us with the garbage we have to sail in, may have finally spotted we're in the twenty-first century and want instant access and excitement in order to selfie our pursuits to our friends and buddies.. Now if only we can get Easy AND Exciting developed and packaged instead of fixation with 'you need to get to know the boat and spend less time trying to undo the damage Messrs Bethwaite inflicted upon us there could still be a future. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Jan 18 at 5:33pm
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Dinghy sailing is a fairly difficult sport to become good at (as is windsurfing) and getting to the point where you can access the 'excitement' takes considerably more effort than, say, mountain biking (and most people got over the initial hump on a bike as kids). There's not a lot we can do about that as it is the nature of the beast. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 22 Jan 18 at 5:40pm
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Two pence worth. "Now if only we can get Easy AND Exciting developed and packaged instead of fixation with 'you need to get to know the boat and spend less time trying to undo the damage Messrs Bethwaite inflicted upon us there could still be a future." This is recurring theme from you iGRF and one I mostly disagree with. I cannot see how easy can be exciting, surely it is a level of jeopardy which creates the excitement? Some do find speed exciting but I still contend easy speed pales quite quickly. Yes of course racing can be exciting an any level of jeopardy but that is a different theme and one removed from discussions about equipment (boats). Much as I appreciate the articles and efforts researching both boats and sailing politics I think they focus on an inward looking blame game. To my mind any rise and fall in the popularity of sailing has much more to do with social circumstances and aspirations than anything else. Of course those of us into sailing quite naturally attribute much to our craft while we decry others and we are equally convinced that those "in charge" are doing it all wrong. I see this as a delusion of self importance. Nothing stays the same forever and history is littered with skeletons of the next big thing. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Jan 18 at 9:43pm
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iGRF, Do you have any evidence at all that established classes such as the three I own Mirror, Enterprise and Minisail, plus other similar classes have contributed to the decline in sailing ?
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Jan 18 at 10:22pm
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Interesting that the 3 boats you own could be said to have been major contributors to the boom in sailing. I can't really see that they contributed to the fall, as the class association for each of them actually only played a part in the story of the boats. With Mirrors and Minisails, far more boats were owned by people who never raced, and may have been totally unaware that there even was a CA.
That all 3 classes have faded in comparison to the glory days has far more to do with the way families live than internal pressures and politics, as Do Different says. I suspect we should learn to live with sailing as a more niche sport, encouraging people to try it, and fit it into their lives in such a way that works for them, whether it be racing on the circuit or at a club, playing on an estuary or pond in the summer, hiring a Pico at a centre or going on a beach sailing holiday every couple of years. There should be fun, accessible boats that people can jump in and get a buzz from with only a modicum of skill - indeed, there are plenty out there already. Currently, making them a bit heavy is the most common way of taking them - or adding a hull, of course. There should also be boats out there for those who want to master something which will give equivalent thrills to sailors wth more experience, boats for those who want close, chess on the water style racing, boats for those who want to camp-cruise, and for every other wish. The diversity is what makes sailing, in all its forms, interesting. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22 Jan 18 at 10:30pm
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I have to say that I'm not sure what the point of the article was precisely, but it is an interesting ( and massive topic. So massive it is difficult to know which aspect to concentrate the conversation on. What needs to be avoided, however, is a bout of navel gazing. Times change. I suppose the first thing is to clearly articulate the problem to be solved. Declining club membership? Declining voluntary support to the club? Declining participation of members? Declining new boat sales? In my experience: The number of people wanting to learn to sail seems healthy. The number of people wanting to race (regularly) seems to be reducing. The number of people prepared to buy a new boat (typically now 25% of salary) must be under pressure. The number of people wanting to be members of any sort of club is reducing (for all sorts of social and technological reasons, also true for the decline in pubs). The need for boat storage is the same as ever for boat owners (hence the need to be a member of a club). The number of people prepared to run a club on a voluntary basis is reducing. I suspect the unfashionable nature of belonging to any sort of club (and the fact that even those that are willing to do that are unwilling to run said club) are at least as big a factor in the decline in sailing as any lack of people wanting to sail.
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 22 Jan 18 at 11:10pm
Paul, it does seem more balanced but what's still inherently disappointing is that the decline is assumed but not evidenced: there is a little pretaliation at keyboard warriors like me who don't necessarily agree The concern should be that the majority of these changes are indicative of negative trends and that despite better clothing that delivers year around suitability and a wide choice of commercially available, accessible boats, that a look at both the headline numbers and those that underpin them shows a sport that is shrinking. This will probably be the cue for the usual keyboard warriors to dash off another "Dear Sir" missive on how their own club now has a vibrant youth scene with a cast of thousands and it is certainly the case that there are some very forward-looking establishments doing some great work out there. but I'd like to see some actual evidence presented for the decline that is claimed. Some proper analysis could then be brought to bear....rather than more boat focussed history. As a couple of others have already pointed out - it's more than the boats. Similarly I'd like to hear what he thinks (or thinks that people think - same thing) the establishment errors which he references were. Bread, butter, no jam.
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Posted By: chris_wht
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 10:31am
you *could* argue i suppose that to a young kid, looking for an exciting looking, modern, 'street cred' hobby thats going to look good in their selfies, they arent the most engaging of propositions? It would be quite interesting to get the views of people who didnt stick with the sport, be they mid-lifers, pensioners or toddlers, rather than continuing assumptions. I would suspect the responses would be rather varied! ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 11:16am
My opinion for what it's worth remains exactly where it was when I first surfaced here having failed to learn to dinghy sail in a Musto Skiff and that was that the products that were then being promoted as the pinnacle of the sport were ridiculous in that nobody, not even the good guys could use them for what they were intended for any more than fifty per cent of the time and often less than that. The ludicrous over powered straight rockered drivel from Bethwaite, coupled to the various offerings from RS, the 700, 600, the 300 and now I realise the 200, all disasters marketed 80's style if you weren't able to sail them it's your fault for being somehow not good enough.... What did you think was going to happen to the activity with that attitude? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 11:31am
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There is another thing..
It's the abuse, not sexual abuse or anything tawdry , it's what we subject our kids to at the hands of the bloody RYA and their squad 'training' the long hours on the water waiting for whatever, all the other ministrations of a school like system that inoculates those that don't make the 'grade' by whatever cut off age it is, against ever sailing again as soon as they become self aware and self determined. It's also the lack of educating and involving parents at the same time, it's they that the sport should be marketed to, parents have the disposable income, they could equally become a part rather than a taxi driver, the whole thing is screwed by the reliance on funding for kids and the Olympic pathway.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 12:11pm
Two good posts  Now apparently they are pushing foiling as the way to go.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 12:29pm
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Foiling... It's everywhere, Kitefoils, WIndsurf foils and of course the search for the 'Peoples Foiler' but it's just a progression of the Elitism that does nothing to broaden the base of the triangle.
The key factor is accessibility and that's where we fall down, there are not enough points of access geared to actually flogging people the sport. And those there are, don't do the job adequately and there is no follow up. It's a competitive world and without enthusiast based school, product and profit motivation imv you wont get any more than the natural take up that random access brings and or parent child pass down. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 12:30pm
Oh gawd, I am totally in agreement with him on this one. Book me a shrink ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 12:31pm
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Too many people banging on about 'the decline' referenced to the boom years of the 60s. That was a lifetime ago. Irrelevant. We can't go back to selling 10,000 mirrors a year or whatever it was. We need to look at what's happened over say the last ten years, build on the positives and maybe undo a few negatives. Get it right for the people who are involved now. Concentrate on being a small sport done well. |
Posted By: chris_wht
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 12:37pm
next in the que for the shrink..... very agreeable and not a mention of the pyag in sight ------------- |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 12:52pm
But those designs sold boats and achieved some level at least of uptake and popularity. And if you think 200 is tricky, try hoisting, gybing and dropping the kite in a Lark in a sea and a blow - those were the 'student party' boats of the 80s. Makes the 200 seem a doddle; required teamwork, technique and balance to handle well One thing I think the article misses is the stretch in the range of abilities over the years. We need to remember that the bloody state-sponsored-voluntary-tax called the lottery heralded a full-on professionalism. Previously there was a tiny number of quasi-pros but the number and rewards grew dramatically. That process pulled standards up at the front of open fleets and even club level. So now, an adult entering the sport has a massive learning curve to climb be able to mix it even with the mid-fleeters who have done their 10,000 hours, even if not always that wisely. Now I am not a skiier but would anyone let a total novice out on a difficult black run? I suspect not, so why should a dinghy sailing total beginner be expected to be able to jump into boat that is the equivalent of a black run? Does a beginner sail-boardist start out on a foiling tea-tray with a huge sail? ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 12:54pm
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Another one here, my experience of the RYA's youth system is Windsurfing's Team 15 setup. There is no question that there are plenty of enthusiastic and well meaning people involved but there is no progression beyond the Olympic pathway for those teaching that eponymous age.... in face the T15 coaches seemed to actively discourage their charges having any involvement with 'the opposition' (back in the day that was the UKBSA, now the UKWA) and DIV1/Raceboards....... They were churning out dozens of competent young racers the just abandoning them at 15 years old instead of pointing them at their UKWA regional series and local clubs. TBF the UKBSA/UKWA stopped supporting their regions 20+ years ago and left them to fend for themselves. Were it not for a few enthusiastic volunteers the club/regional Raceboard scene would have died out completely........ ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 1:12pm
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I must say I despair at the foiling mania that seems to have gripped some people within the RYA. That is definitely not going to attract loads of 'normal' people to sailing, on the contrary, they'll see this and go bungee jumping instead, which looks far less complicated. Maybe the people at the top have decided that the high performers need to be kept happy with new ways of making sailing more challenging? It seems to me that there is a very broad range from beginners to international level who are all lumped together under one umbrella. Perhaps what could help is something they started in Germany a few years back: the Sailing Bundesliga (only we would call it the "Cat o' Nine Tails Championship" or something similar), where clubs battle it out in a league format. Might attract more people to their local clubs, as they'd identify more with a club at their location than with an individual sailor. ------------- Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 1:34pm
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My club did inter club racing for years, we used to do a 3 corner with 2 other local clubs, tried to restart this last year, only managed to get Banbury cross to take part, was a brilliant day, made even better because we won. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 1:54pm
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RE "Black Run" tell me honestly who hasn't heard of tales from beginners who endured the inevitable 'black run' by error.?
Many a dinner party conversation turns to tales from the slopes like that, but contrast that say with the beginner experience on offer to our would be grown up neophyte into sailing where, lets say hailing from deepest Surrey they decide to approach our friends at Frensham Pond.. (Tongue in cheek here for Clives benefit) Where after a couple of years of the public being advised that the website would harm their computer, the would be sailor is now offered a 5 day, yes 5 days starting at 8.30 in the morning course and at the end a certificate in your new found excitement of being able to master a bloody GP14... FFS, come on now what are we thinking? And... I bet racing isn't even mentioned. Or... if you want the gold star you get to use a Laser Bahia. So what should happen? There should be a rack of Aeros (Or better still Solutions) and on DAY 2 they should be racing them around the cans.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 2:32pm
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I may get shot for this - but is the sport really in as bad shape as people make out? I agree society has changed in many ways and that this has affected lots of sports and past-times but against this tide of change has sailing really come off that badly? Over the 35 years I have been sailing I have been a member of many clubs and visited many more on opens and nationals and I am struggling to recall a club that seemed in terminal decline. Sure less people are sailing but then less people do sport or out door things in general but it seems odd to me to be saying that we are in terminal decline! Someone in this post made the point that there is a move toward mid-speed, mid-difficulty boats which is certainly something I have seen over the years. Huge effort to get skiff type boats out there which most of us tried and secretly hated to sail - suspect the same will be try of foils...fun on holiday for a blast but not something you want to do each weekend for the next five years!
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 2:40pm
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I have yet to see a 2nd day beginner who could race, putting them under a lot of pressure throwing them into a race. My club gets beginners out in the races, watch what experienced racers do at a particular mark and try themselves, when they are happy move to another mark. Boats, Bahia's and Topaz's for training, other boats, Enterprise, GP14 etc.
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 2:49pm
I tend to agree. |
Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 2:54pm
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From my own club I don't think it's terminal. We get a decent number of boats out each weekend, even in weather like this, but since I've been a member I have seen very few new people join, while the existing members are not getting any younger. We have a good number of juniors, but once they finish school they're off to uni somewhere else, and don't seem to be coming back. We are training about 20 beginners per year, but we're lucky if one or two of them stick around after the training course. So long-term I can foresee a problem... ------------- Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986 |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 2:58pm
I agree that racing is very scary to many beginners and I think as a sport we lose lots of people that are interested but after doing their level 1&2 or a week in the Med they cannot find a way into the sport. Our club ran "Super Saturdays" for beginners last year - it was free to come along and either get into a boat with an experienced sailor or take a club boat out and cruise around with close rescue boat supervision. Lots of people who used it commented that it was a great way to build skills and confidence but one piece of feedback was that they were nervous about the next leap into club racing and worried about getting in the way. So we encouraged them into pursuit races that were laid on specifically to encourage people - serious racers had fun and laughed alot and it was great fun for all. Could not do it each weekend but once or twice a season seemed to make a huge difference in how many went on to buy a boat and go racing or become a crew for someone needing one!
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 3:01pm
'Skiff type boats' however you define that, there are a lot of people sailing fast dinghies. When I were a lad, fireballs were regarded as very fast, enterprises were the standard adult boat. A lot of adults were racing things slower than ents. Sometimes even racing Mirrors. Maybe our standards of 'fast' have changed. I think there is a drift back towards tactical fleet racing in some quarters. Boat vs boat, person vs person at close quarters around the course, in Lasers, Solos, Merlins or whatever. Much as many of us drifted back to dinghies after boards lost their attraction. |
Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 3:07pm
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I'd just love to see someone try foiling on our little inner-city puddle :) ------------- Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986 |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 3:15pm
| I agree that there are lots of people sailing fast dinghy's - I am one of them - but things like the 49er and other twin trap skiffs have become the reserve of a small band of very skilled and very committed people. I suspect the same will be true of foiling and I am happy for them to go do their stuff but the majority will be happily sailing around in boats that are less extreme if still fun to sail. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 3:29pm
| My boats fit my "comfort zone" Minisprint hardest to sail, would have a go at foiling though, but nowhere close enough to use on a regular basis, so won't be buying one. |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 3:31pm
Oh sure I will try one out on my summer holidays and blast around in it, but I would rather chew my leg off then race one each week. Its like those jet skis, great fun for a blast but once you have done it for a bit its just a noisyt**t-bike
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 4:22pm
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I don't get this reluctance to compete..
You won't get far turning up for Tennis Lessons, or Squash, or Golf, we should be less about Swallows and Amazons and more about sailing the sport, and our approach should be so geared. Come on, how difficult is it? There that's the sail thing, there you wiggle that thing at the back to point it, and there see that buoy over there you've got to sail round it and get back here, 1st one back buys the teas, off you go.. (Day One). ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 4:26pm
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And the whole RYA levels thing is geared towards sailing around a course........ ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 4:48pm
Is it? I've no idea, when we set up the levels thing for windsurfing we tried to keep it triangle and about going round a course, then they buggered about and launched some new thing 'fast forward' without centreboards without racing and windsurfing stopped growing almost from that moment. That and the big school owners being used as inspectors to close all the small ones. The RYA tend to set their 'modules' up in as time consuming and boring method possible, since their interest is in selling instructor time and 'the experience' rather than swelling the ranks of active sailors or conversion. I've long held the belief, better to sell the product and build the course of lessons on how to use it as a far better method of getting converted sailors and boat users. We have exactly the same issues these days with kitesurfing, which is now beyond the novelty surge and we now have centres that just churn the interest with no motivation to convert the numbers into actual kitesurfers. We're not impeded by the RYA (for very good reason), but we have a similar body,(but even more corrupt) that facilitates schools and can undermine the shop/shool scenario that kicked the sport off. So the battle goes on between those that would purvey the hardware and those that impart the skill, but, we're nowhere near as separated as the dinghy world, it still happens that those that teach you also sell you the means with which to carry out the activity and that my friends is what essentially is missing from dinghydom ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 4:51pm
I guess the difference is that when you learn most sports you get to compete with people of the same standard. So in your example when you learn tennis you start off playing against other people who are learning so you both spend ages missing the ball and getting them out. Its easy to not feel that you are spoiling someone else's fun. With sailing you are trying to sail the boat and also on a course with lots of others, many of whom are taking it all seriously and shout at you if you get in their way plus there is a whole set of weird rules. We did find at our club that when we were intentional about putting on races where beginners would be welcome that it had a huge impact on the number of people that graduated from learning to sail to being active members of the club.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 5:17pm
| What I can say for certain is that the average club tennis player plays to a much higher standard than the average club sailor sails to. Most club sailors have had barely any coaching in their life, partly because it is time consuming, boring, expensive and difficult to communicate. Most club tennis players get many hours of coaching every week. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 5:36pm
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No disrespect to tennis, the sport or players, but it's easier to play tennis than sail a boat, especially in the cauldron of a busy start. I enjoyed RYA level 1 & 2, perhaps other instructors are more regimented than the ones I had.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 6:06pm
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My inland club has the option of a delayed start for novices (tie a streamer on the end of the boom and hang back for a second start gun at +1min, times are corrected in the results). My holiday club sails simple triangle courses and runs beach starts (for two reasons, we have a large proportion of inexperienced racers and it means the starts can be run from the beach by non-sailors). ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 6:16pm
I don't think the design of boats is to blame for any perceived decline in participation. We have a free market, if a builder spots a gap that will be popular they would be silly to ignore it - so we get the boats we want. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 8:00pm
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No, I don't think we get the boats we need, we get boats other people foist upon us, look again at those poor buggers being forced into GPf**king14s at Frensham.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 8:04pm
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According to the RYA they are seeing more interest in people learning to sail than they have for some years. But many of said people are choosing to learn at activities centres. It would be interesting to know why. I can understand that somebody who fancies trying something active might go to his local centre and do a bit of wall climbing, SUP, canoeing or whatever and then get interested in sailing. Without a friend who knows about sailing it is unlikely they will think of joining a club. The RYA is suggesting Clubs try and target their local activity centres as recruitment grounds for those who have got the bug.
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 8:43pm
A rare moment of agreement with GRF! We have had lots of success running beginner courses aimed at a Beginner Regatta at the end of a 5 day period. I'd also observe that as soon as kids and most adults can vaguely control a boat then they tend to start competing. So why not start to race from Day 2 (but brief it in on Day 1!). That way novice sailors are already racing when they complete a course. No block to overcome....
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 9:20pm
Good point - the flip side of this is why don’t a few people start racing at the activity centre. Do we really need independent ‘clubs’? |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 9:32pm
So a Musto Skiff is not the boat to learn in, but neither is the opposite, something stable that you sit in (with an instructor), not stand outside? This from someone who thinks an RS200 is difficult to sail! Who learns to drive in a Porsche 911? People learn in Corsas and Micras and the like. Terrible cars. Nevertheless, I am not a fan of the RYA method; I have a theory that if sex-instruction was based exclusively on RYA methodology the human race would disappear in 2 generations. ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Jan 18 at 9:33pm
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I did RYA level 1& 2 at a local authority activity centre, zip lines, high wire 5 a side football etc You can sail there every saturday during the season, using their boats or take your own, they will also put on racing, sailability centre too.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 24 Jan 18 at 9:41am
Given how incestuous Team GB are alleged to be, you could well be right mate!
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Jan 18 at 10:31am
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The problem with clubs approaching centres is that centres are often 'for profit' organisations so it's not to their benefit to encourage their customers to go elsewhere. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Jan 18 at 10:41am
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 24 Jan 18 at 11:02am
You've never done that before  ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Jan 18 at 6:09pm
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Not exactly sure what you think is wrong with RYA approach ? What would you do instead ? I have actually done RYA level 1& 2, people who are slating RYA approach, have you actually done courses yourselves ? I enjoyed course, centre where I did my course actively encouraged people to join a sailing club and to take up racing, I was given a list of clubs and contact details for best person to talk to. I can't see how centre where I did my course could improve ?
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 24 Jan 18 at 8:12pm
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There is a small minority in the sailing world, who are a vocal minority here but drip enough BS to sound like a majority, who are just anti RYA. I have kids who are loving their squad work. I recognise some of the coach behaviours criticised earlier in this thread, but not from their RYA training. I thought about commenting but life is too short. But I'd still challenge anyone who claims the sport is in decline to provide some hard evidence.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 25 Jan 18 at 5:56am
| http://www.marinebusinessworld.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=882&PN=1&title=is-dinghy-sailing-on-the-decline" rel="nofollow - http://www.marinebusinessworld.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=882&PN=1&title=is-dinghy-sailing-on-the-decline |
Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 25 Jan 18 at 9:43am
The criticism of the RYA system is probably aimed more at the Kids/Juinior Squad system. I can understand some of the points that are being raised, they way the kids are taken away from the clubs to "squad centres" in high numbers and there does seem allot of churn (once out of the squad system do the kids come back to the club and resume sailing ??? not sure what the truth is, they also seem to be taught a very aggressive style of sailing too). I did my dinghy 1 & 2 after I had already been crewing for 2 years in Ents (I had already crossed the Atlantic twice under sail too, I needed the Certificate to be able to helm club boats). I did it at a big sailing centre, in North Wales. There was three of us on the course myself, and a father and son. It was end of November, there was snow, it was cold. The instructor was quite young and though probably more offshore orientated was OK, but seemed to lack the dinghy specific knowledge of sailing dinghy's (there are a few differences to sailing a boat that doesn't have a lump of lead attached to the bottom). Anyway...... Maybe because I had already done a fair bit of sailing, and had a grasp of the theory I felt that it wasn't really done that well, could have possibly done it better (eg more just sailing and getting a feel for it) |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 25 Jan 18 at 10:01am
*applauds wildly* 
What I see at my club is no drop in the numbers sailing and racing (and we've seen an increase in adults and kids participating on courses at our sister organisation), but a drop off in membership renewals, ie those people that continue their membership year after year without sailing much, if at all. Looks like a bit of belt-tightening to me, which is perfectly natural in the current climate. I'll not go in depth on the youth side right now, but whilst I think the RYA (through their Squad Coaches)could do more to help retain within the sport those that don't make the next squad, perhaps clubs could be more proactive in this as well. ------------- |
Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 25 Jan 18 at 10:47am
| Times article today (p9) suggesting significant fall off in numbers of young people feeling the need to get a licence to drive or own a car. "It is possible that the changes in young people's travelling behaviour described are the first phase of a societal change that will continue through generations.." If that means people will increasingly look for activities that do not need a car, that would be a cause for concern. |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 25 Jan 18 at 10:54am
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They probably only feel there is no need for a car if they live in a big town or city with good infrastructure meaning they don't have to pay 10 times the value of the car in insurance premiums. I would imagine those premiums are the single biggest turn off from owning a car rather than directly from a society driven change. Society is changing because of it. It will though have a knock on to any activity that is not local ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 25 Jan 18 at 10:56am
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As for the rya training, nearly all adults that come to our club wasn't official training. The days of just getting something and jumping in it and finding out for yourself are gone it would seem. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Jan 18 at 10:56am
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It seems lots of traditional sports activities are allegedly in decline, Golf clubs casting about for members where once there were waiting lists Tennis Clubs, Squash clubs all the activities our generation grew up with seem to be struggling as latter day snowflakes look elsewhere for their bite sized instant gratification.
Dinghy sailing in my world and sphere of influence hasn't declined but then the sports we moved from has (windsurfing), the world is fluid, so the watch word is continue promotion of the activity you love and endeavour to enthuse others. Which is why some of us are so passionate about overcoming those negative elements that reduce the pleasure of the activity not only for ourselves but those that would join us. We may be doing ok in the couple of small clubs I belong to, but the loss of Bewl casts a long shadow in our area, that was a big club to just disappear and not enough was done to fight for it in my view. We have lost the RYA many of us knew of old, the avuncular bunch of volunteer committee enthusiasts, the Jenny Currys, the Edmund Whelands that would rush to our aid are gone and replaced with a PC corporation more akin to a quasi Government department bent on burying us with bureaucracy, replacing us with 'professional' schools to provide jobs for the output from their commercial school 'graduate' programmes, than assisting amateurs promote their sport via their local club. All we can do is keep on carrying on and hope the next generation do pick up the reigns even if in doing so they do things differently and fill the beach with bikes and SUPS as they have done at our place, but better that than the place closed, ripped down and another block of luxury flats going up to fill the local councils coffers. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 25 Jan 18 at 11:02am
A lto of those knocking the 'RYA approach' knock it based on a presumption that level 1 and 2 will be taught is poorly equipped and spec'ed lower performance boats and/or in Simplified rig WayBarges or BoSwines ... 25 years ago that might have been the case , but also by then sailing schools were also learning that throwing kids and teens out on the water in Toppers and the like also worked pretty damn well at L1/2 ... |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 25 Jan 18 at 11:06am
exactly ... motor insurance premiums for young , inexperienced rivers are ludicrous ... so more and people do wait and if they stay in the TfL bubble or one of the cities ina PTE area there;s less and less need ... meanwhile in the wretched provinces where public transport funding is being spunked on vanity projects ( Lincoln's Boris bikes anyone ? hugely biased placement of docking stations ) |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 25 Jan 18 at 5:11pm
| I live in a city with ‘Boris Bikes’- they’re bloody brilliant. Combined with good public transport infrastructure, taxi apps and the occasional car rental, we don’t actually own a car there anymore- it does mean my sailing there is now a fixed location; but it’s a 25 minute cycle through a park, so I’m not really sure I could be arsed to load a car up to go somewhere else anyway. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25 Jan 18 at 6:35pm
| Actually, I am sure sailing will continue to thrive, because there is nothing else like it. No other sport/leisure activity offers the same mix of attractions. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Jan 18 at 7:38pm
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Nice post Peaky +1 Mess about in boats and out, as much fun to be had falling in. plenty of tech and faffing. good group of motivated people on the whole. |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 25 Jan 18 at 9:08pm
Not sure if you were trying to support the point I was making or not....? Did you mean it to point to the Y&Y thread? Or something else? But in any case that is a 12 year old thread.....which has one reference to a radio programme with an RYA employee or volunteer stating that sailing is seeing reduced numbers but power boating is on the up - wonder what fuel costs did to that? And then a reference to a Probono Mckinsey report which was once on the RYA website, but is no more.... The author of SNAKES must be lurking: show us the evidence for your assertions!
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 12:06am
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As far as I can make out every outdoor sport with the possible exception of the odd temporarily trendy fad is desperately worrying about numbers in this couch potato age. As its a sure bet that we cannot do anything about wider changes in society, then, if the decline in sailing numbers is no worse than other comparable sports, we should just learn to live with it and cut our cloth to suit the grave new world. If on the other hand we have a specific problem it would be good to know, but for sure we won't find out from ill informed rumour and chatter.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 7:12am
| I didn't recognise many of the posters on early thread, have they become part of the alleged decline? |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 7:16am
Exactly Jim, And what worries me is the prescription of a medicine which might just worsen the patient. Because there appear to be quite a few 'doctors' out there.
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 9:35am
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Hi Matt, purpose for posting - dual reasons really. Firstly I doubt McKinsey would publish severely factually inaccurate information, so I think we can assume that the period before this report was commissioned, (2003), showed a marked decline in participation. This isn’t surprising - given the strength of anecdotal evidence that folk talk of with regards to ‘big fleets’ in the 70’s and 80’s. However, it’s also worth noting that this discussion topic has been bubbling on for what must be nearly two decades- with obviously no sense of conclusion or plan of action. Therefore, like you I’m minded to think that it ain’t all that bad, and if anything, the worst of the decline is probably behind us. There are certainly no less active adult racers at clubs around my UK home, to my sea based home clubs in the late 80’s and 90’s as a kid. I’ve also seen my local Laser fleet swell from the 5-6 regulars with a couple of extras back in 2003, to pushing high teens and twenties with some level of consistency- and this is despite all the classes that have come and gone in an attempt to replace it. This is the case at two or three local-ish clubs to my UK base, and I understand Solos have been equally successful at other clubs around there. The Aero is gaining traction at another club nearby, and it won’t take long for Jeffers to cite the D-Zero at Grafham and Hunts - another ‘win’ for sensible boats that are still fun to sail and race with average skills or lack of time. The more of these types of boats actively racing, then the tighter the core PY banding for the ‘club fleet’- especially if supplemented with a programme of club owned boats for newbies etc. If club sailing is to suffer a future of handicap racing only, then I’m sure of one thing, the tighter the PY banding, the more meaningful the racing will actually be. So, I’m kind of with you and Jim on this.... SFW if the numbers have technically dropped from the 1970s. That was a lifetime ago, and societal pressures and economic conditions are so fundamentally different- and in broader terms, very much for the positive for all of us. If there’s one thing I could never abide, it was the blue blazer types that would proliferate the Gentlemen’s Club of the past... so frankly a more family friendly place, OR something semi-professionally run for those who participate without family members, seems a far better set of future options than those toss-pot places of last Century whose stereotype still pervades our collective reputation. I do agree with the general feeling that the RYA’s talent mining efforts does strip clubs of average ability kids who might otherwise go on to serve as club regulars. It’s easy to see that when you’ve been lucky enough to sail 29ers in Weymouth every other week, the prospect of the local pond on Supernova doesn’t do it for you. I think it would be far better alround if there were actually young adults in clubs willing to crew more exciting things like Fireballs and 400s than us ‘oldies’ defaulting to various singlehanded options. But outside of that, my critique of the RYA ends- I think they’re a relative slick operation for keeping Whitehall’s hands off the reigns and this for sure, is a bigger issue in today’s world than whether the odd bloke on a forum thinks the PYAG aren’t transparent enough. It’ll be interesting to see what comes in ‘Ladders’, because half the story only seemed like a trip down Nostalgia Avenue... relatively pointless in many ways, and frankly, doesn’t really add to the sense that there is solid future for dinghy sailing. As Peaky points out, you’d have to try a great number of other things to match ‘a good dinghy race’ for sense of self-worth and achievement. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 10:50am
Yup, that's it. The thing that seem to be lacking in modern training is the simply 'messing about in boats' element that was such a crucial part of my introduction to dinghy sailing. If it had been all formal training in my day I doubt I would be sailing boats now......... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 11:09am
Agreed Show ‘em/teach ‘em it’s fun and you are most of the way there, the majority will work out the rest for themselves, because they then want to master it. this in contrast to the colour-by-numbers style official method
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 11:50am
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I’m basing this next post on the very limited recent experience of observing L1&2 teaching at Draycote, so maybe not universal; but even though there is a formula being followed, there still seems to be a fair amount of messing about boats and laughing going on... I do wonder if those of us harbouring ill views towards the RYA system are
Maybe reading it all a little too literally from some website copy rather than experiencing it on the ground with relaxed and enthusiastic instructors? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 11:52am
| I'd be fairly suprised if many clubs do the syllabus and only the syllabus without a reasonable mixture of less serious stuff. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 12:16pm
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I'm sure they do and the enthusiasm of the instructors is probably the key but our current 'health and safety' culture makes it difficult (or even impossible) for them to allow young sailors to experience the freedom I had as a kid. I was shown the basics and then shoved off in an Optimist to work it out for myself. Safety cover was probably my dad fiddling with his OK on the beach...... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 12:32pm
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There was an old movie reel on BBC4 the other day about folk and boats in the UK in the sixties and half of them were wearing ordinary clothes and some out on the wire. The difference from those days to these is chalk and cheese and we wonder why participation in regimented 'fun' is dropping off. Treating people like idiots, wrapping them in cotton wool, it's bloody embarrassing to watch never mind be a part of, I'm sure if I had to endure all that there is absolutely no way I'd have anything to do with it. All trussed up in Buoyancy vests and God knows what, to go out in the noon day sun, with he assumption that everyone has zero common sense and can't swim a stroke... What do we expect, when our own experiences were so much more adventurous, I don't think I even told my parents I was going to try the sailing dinghy attached to the back of our Broads cruiser, I just hoisted up the rig made my sister sit still and off we went...9 and 6 years old, imagine that today? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 1:13pm
Romance blossoms young in Kent and Norfolk....
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Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 1:29pm
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But I don't want to know how many people died in sailing-related accidents in the 60s compared to now. ------------- Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986 |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 1:41pm
I recall no difference, at least to the 70s when I started. Hell, half the guys in the local keelboats I started crewing my dad in could not swim. The counter argument is lifted from Clarkson. If you want people to drive slowly and safely, you'd put a big spike on the steering wheel, remove all the air-bags, seat-belts with tensioners and ban crumple-zones and SIPS. We are programmed to take risks. The safer you make stuff, the chancier the behaviour ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 1:44pm
| I agree with the fun bit on a small lake, but anything like Draycote and larger or the sea, then no, why should the volunteer RNLI have to be called out from their sunday lunch or kids birthday party because some knobs kids have blown out to sea, no buoyancy, ordinary clothes, shoes, no radios etc. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 2:03pm
Which is why the club employ professional safefty crews for all the time the water is open- it is without doubt the best feature Of membership there. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 2:07pm
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I don't recall any of us having to be rescued back in the day outside of organised racing when the club 'rescue' boat was on hand. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 2:15pm
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"There was an old movie reel on BBC4 the other day about folk and boats in the UK in the sixties and half of them were wearing ordinary clothes and some out on the wire. The difference from those days to these is chalk and cheese and we wonder why participation in regimented 'fun' is dropping off. Treating people like idiots, wrapping them in cotton wool, it's bloody embarrassing to watch never mind be a part of, I'm sure if I had to endure all that there is absolutely no way I'd have anything to do with it." Hell yes! Back in the fifties and sixties men were men. Life expectancy of Grand Prix drivers (no namby pamby seatbelts) was about the same as a Spitfire pilot in the Battle of Britain. The had the RIGHT STUFF, no doubt like the dinghy sailors of that era, (who were nevertheless had a better survival rate.)
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 3:35pm
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"Draycote and above", such as Rutland water, kids can be a long way from safety cover, not talking about organised sailing such as our saturday morning cygnets club. |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 4:27pm
| the best thing that could happen is for the Olympic funding for the Rya to be withdrawn. They could then get off the medal to survive treadmill and concentrate on teaching people to enjoy sailing and racing |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 4:39pm
I remember my dad making his own wetsuit from a kit of 5mm or so unlined neoprene...... I got neoprene socks as it was so expensive. You needed to cover your feet in talcum powder to get them on........... Needless to say the 'frostbite series' really lived up to it's name back then....... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 4:40pm
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I wasn't paying that much attention back then, but was there really an epidemic of death by dinghy? Was it like skiing is now for instance? I watched this thing on the news last night, somehow some kid has managed to kill himself with an airgun, how that happened I can't figure for the life of me, but hey ho they're now on the got to be banned list, it just goes on this pathetic pc cottonwool world we're in. I hate to think what we're going to evolve into, some sort of pudding that operates a screen by all counts using vr games for excitement of what those tearaways did in the sixties seventies and eighties.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 5:25pm
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Mirror dinghies averaged about 4,500 sales per year, mostly UK, Lasers more like 10,000, worldwide that is tho, (i just googled them, not guesses) Larks sold over 100 per year, scorpions about the same, Toppers, Ents and GP14s probably ten times that And thats just a few classes, numerous others were also getting numbers that RS and the like probably fantasise about today. So far more new boat buying activity than today. and no, there was no such epidemic of death, far from it, even tho most of those boats were, almost by definition, going to total newbies ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Jan 18 at 6:14pm
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IGRF, Extreme sports. Squirrel suits. Downhill mountain biking. Freefall from space. Far from cottonwool, add many others, technology will give us more sports in the future, why can't we have thrilling sports but minimise the risk of death or worse ? |
Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 27 Jan 18 at 12:50pm
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I'm with iGRF on this one. Bunch of f..... pussies. Risk averse in the extreme and bugger all common sense. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 27 Jan 18 at 2:59pm
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Not sure what you're saying Pierre. Attitude to risk has changed and it is difficult to generalise. My mate's Dad was a respected Osprey sailor in the heyday, minimal safety clothing at sea but according to my mate he simply did not capsize. Nowadays with better clothing and more safety cover there seems to be a greater willingness to push harder and accept crashing as part of the game. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Jan 18 at 3:33pm
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So where do they all go if not sailing? We take ours attach them to 12 or 14 square metres of kite and send them out into the ocean on a wake board with zero buoyancy, and lots of them love it and some even get to come back to shore...
So when those very same people get asked to go sailing with maybe their girlfriend or father in law or have to get involved with their kids, what do you think they think about you lot trussing yourselves up in all sorts of safety paraphanalia to go out in the relative safety of a boat, which floats, even if it sinks? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Jan 18 at 3:45pm
Perhaps your mates dad just knew that capsizing was slow (and it's always slower than not capsizing)? Capsizing never bothered me in the '60s and I'm still here..... (And still capsizing BTW  )------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 27 Jan 18 at 5:29pm
Yes Sam I'm sure you're correct about said Osprey sailor, weren't you a windsurfer though ? 
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Jan 18 at 6:10pm
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Dinghy sailor first back in the late '60s, windsurfer in the late '70s till the present but back to dinghies properly for the 2008 season and only windsurfing occasionally these days. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Jan 18 at 6:44pm
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I've kinda got used to always wearing a BA now, and there are more head injury risks in dinghy sailing, but it does seem that there is now an attitude that if you aren't wearing one, you are somehow not only endangering your own life (even when 10 feet from the shore on a river) but those of every rescue service out there, every child who sails, as they might see you and copy, and possibly causing rising sea levels in Polynesia.
Some form of personal responsibility for decisions on safety, especially in obviously benign environments, would be welcome. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Jan 18 at 7:24pm
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The BA thing is a slightly odd one, I was taught to always wear one in a boat, without fail, and I still do but I almost never wear one while windsurfing (big wind and/or waves on the sea only). Maybe it was my dad's way of convincing my mum that I would be safe, though the culture was in place anyway and many classes mandated on personal buoyancy when racing. I suppose if I was sailing a proper skiff I might not wear one if I found it got in the way but probably not, it's too ingrained after 50+ years.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Jan 18 at 7:55pm
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One section of article mentioned a return to pre war elitist sailing for the fairly wealthy, can't see how this could happen, clubs would have to ban all second hand boats, charge exhorbitant membership fees. I personally would counter these measures by starting my own club, there are several suitable lakes close to me without clubs, allowing old boats, cheap fees.
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Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 27 Jan 18 at 11:49pm
I think what I am saying is I get a bit tired of people's absolute reliance of safety boats, and the like, every time they go for a paddle, and seem unable to accept personal responsibility for their own actions. Be a bit brave chaps and mtfu. Yes staying upright is fast. Equipment today is great |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 28 Jan 18 at 9:22am
I think to a point it already has, there are at the clubs I sail at far fewer old sub £500 or even £1000 boats active than there were when I started sailing in the mid 90's. Maybe there is just more money around, I dont know but the "stock boat" racing of bodging a tired old plastic Enterprise back together over lunch seems to have died a death - this is probably a good thing for the sport as the usual process was for newbies to buy said plastic Enterprise, spend a month trying to keep it sailing then park it up to sell on to someone who comes off next years course. What is frustrating are the hoops that an inner city club have to be seen to jump through regarding diversity to justify their presence and the members time that gets wasted on trying to encourage non - white people to come sailing. If they want to come they will, and actually quite a number have.
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