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eric_c View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09 May 23 at 9:14pm
A boat is generally not required to leave the end of a finishing line to a particular side. It is specifically stated that once any part of the boat has crossed the line, a yacht is not required to fully cross the line after finishing. There is no way in plain English you can say a generic end of a finish line must be left on a particular side, unless the SIs require that. If the ends of a finish line were automatically 'marks' then the definition of 'mark' would not need to add the clause of a committee boat. If the end of a finsih line is a 'mark' then the definition of 'sailing the course would contradict the right to not fully cross the finish line. The rules are what the rules actually say, not any 'you know what they meant to say' /'spirit of the rules' mumbo jumbo.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 23 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by eric_c


A yacht is not required to leave a finishing 'mark' to a particular side, so how does R18 apply?

Its not a Mark, in bold, as per the definitions.


Maybe that's because references to definitions in the RRS are printed in italics.

Introduction Terminology

A term used in the sense stated in the Definitions is printed in italics


Every reference to 'finishing mark' in the RRS has 'mark' italicised.

Of course boats are required to leave finishing marks designating the port and starboard on those respective sides in order to finish and comply with rule 28.

Originally posted by eric_c


Is an object which defines the end of a finishing line actually an obstruction (if it's big enough!) so R19 applies?


If it's big enough, it's an obstruction, but, being a mark, unless it's a continuing obstruction, rule 18 and not rule 19 will apply. See rule 18.1(d).



Edited by Brass - 09 May 23 at 8:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 23 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by Gfinch

What happens if you hit the committee boat, which is one end of the line?
This happened a few years back, when I was beating to the finish line, cross-tacking with the leading boat on the final leg.

During my final tack, there was a gust which made me heel more than anticipated and my mast touched the committee boat, but almost at the same time I crossed the line and received a finish.

I then did a 360 turn, and it was decided that instead of 2nd place I should be awarded 3rd, as in the time it took for me to do a 360, had I been racing still, the boat behind might have caught up.


A race committe vessel which is one end of the finish line is within the definition of 'Mark' in bold.
Mark An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified
side, a race committee vessel surrounded by navigable water from which the
starting or finishing line extends, and an object intentionally attached to the
object or vessel. However, an anchor line is not part of the mark.

You should have done your turn and re-crossed the line from the course side, then you would have finished.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dakota Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 23 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by Old bloke

Ref 423zeros post. I have to disagree with that, even amongst friendly mates racing awareness of the rules, your "rights" (Brass will disagree with rights but I couldn't think of a better word) and otherwise are very much part of the game. Anything else is just a cruise in company

I do agree . Not that knowledge of the rules should ever used used to bully new or inexperienced sailors .
At my tiny puddle we all have a reasonable knowledge of the rules because its so small if we didn’t, it would be utter carnage.  Smile 
After all if you don’t know the basic rules how do you know when someone has infringed you or if you have infringed someone else ? 


Edited by Dakota - 10 May 23 at 1:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 23 at 8:15pm
Eric I can categorically guarantee you, you would have no issues on the course from me.
Robert
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 23 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by 423zero

I would have no respect for racers who deliberately aim to use the rules to force a win, if you are that keen aim for the middle and win on skill, not a barristers grasp of the rules.
I have less respect for people racing who expect other racers to give them more than the rules entitle them to.
What do you expect to happen if there's a third boat? Am I entitled to alter course 'to be nice to someone' and in doing so disadvantage someone else?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 23 at 7:54pm
I would have no respect for racers who deliberately aim to use the rules to force a win, if you are that keen aim for the middle and win on skill, not a barristers grasp of the rules.
Robert
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Old bloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 23 at 7:42pm
Ref 423zeros post. I have to disagree with that, even amongst friendly mates racing awareness of the rules, your "rights" (Brass will disagree with rights but I couldn't think of a better word) and otherwise are very much part of the game. Anything else is just a cruise in company

Edited by Old bloke - 09 May 23 at 7:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 23 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by Brass

Correct.   There is no ambiguity.

Rule 18.1 says

Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave
a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone.


followed by four exceptions, (a) to (d), which are irrelevant here.

The Preamble to Section C then contains a further exception

Section C rules do not apply at a starting mark surrounded by navigable
water or at its anchor line from the time boats are approaching them to
start until they have passed them.


Rule 18 makes no distinction whether a mark is a 'turn' mark (whateverthat is), a rounding mark, a high mark, a low mark or any other sort of mark, as long as boats are required to leave it on the same side.

So the only relevant exception is a starting mark surrounded by navigable water.

A finishing mark is not a starting mark.

An outside boat is required to give mark room in accordance with rule 18.

A yacht is not required to leave a finishing 'mark' to a particular side, so how does R18 apply?
Its not a Mark, in bold, as per the definitions.
Is an object which defines the end of a finishing line actually an obstruction (if it's big enough!) so R19 applies?


Edited by eric_c - 09 May 23 at 7:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 23 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by Gfinch

What happens if you hit the committee boat, which is one end of the line?
This happened a few years back, when I was beating to the finish line, cross-tacking with the leading boat on the final leg.

During my final tack, there was a gust which made me heel more than anticipated and my mast touched the committee boat, but almost at the same time I crossed the line and received a finish.

I then did a 360 turn, and it was decided that instead of 2nd place I should be awarded 3rd, as in the time it took for me to do a 360, had I been racing still, the boat behind might have caught up.



You broke rule 31 Touching a Mark.

You took a One Turn Penalty for breaking rule 31 which was the applicable penalty under rule 44.2.

You took your penalty after you had crossed the finishing line, so that crossing of the finishing line didn't count as your finish.

Definitions:Finish Finish A boat finishes when, after starting, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she
(a) takes a penalty under rule 44.2


So strictly speaking you needed to get back on the course side and cross the finishing line again to finish.

Irrelevant whether you touched the RCV just before or just after your bow crossed the line, you're still racing until you have cleared the finishing mark, and if you hit it you can't have cleared it.
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