Race rules advice pls
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Category: Dinghy classes
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14021
Printed Date: 13 Jul 25 at 1:02pm
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Topic: Race rules advice pls
Posted By: Bandin
Subject: Race rules advice pls
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 8:32am
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So a course is shortened.. one of the marks is now one end of the finish line.. Competitor A calls for water at the mark (which is now a finish line but was/is a mark). Competitor B refuses and says the mark is no longer a mark but the finish line and has no obligation to give space.. Who is correct? |
Replies:
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 9:19am
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I wouldn't give room at the finish line, you would go from first to second (assuming you were in the lead). ------------- Robert |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 10:52am
| Neither. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 1:28pm
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Well its certainly correct that its now a finish line and the mark is no longer a *turning* mark. However I don' believe there's anything in the rule book that says RRS18 doesn't apply at a finishing mark.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 2:17pm
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Case 129
Definition, Finish Rule 28, Sailing the Course Rule 32, Shortening or Abandoning after the Start Rule 62.1(a), Redress When the course is shortened at a rounding mark, the mark becomes a finishing mark. Rule 32.2(a) permits the race committee to position the vessel displaying flag S at either end of the finishing line. A boat must cross the line in accordance with the definition Finish, even if in so doing she leaves that mark on the side opposite the side on which she would have been required to leave it if the course had not been shortened. |
Posted By: Bandin
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 3:26pm
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So I'm still confused here.. I'll explain the situation a little more clearly.. Ignoring how they tactically could have played this out better earlier down the run... Leeward mark (which had previously been a port rounding mark) is now the left hand end of the finish line. Both boats are level side by side on port. Within three boat lengths of the left end mark of the finish (previous rounding mark). Leeward boat tightens up a little so windward boat (previously keep clear boat) cant get to the finish line and is now heading directly for the mark. Windward shouts for water. Leeward replies he doesnt have to give any. Windward boat has to avoid mark wrong side of the line and come around again. Who was in the wrong?
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 4:15pm
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With only three boat lengths to go would be difficult for Lee boat to give windward boat room. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Bandin
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 4:28pm
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Windward initially had room until leeward tightened up towards the mark cutting him out. It was a slow, very light wind day so plenty of time. |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 4:40pm
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Its a mark.
L is required to give W mark-room. |
Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 4:48pm
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Sorry, I'm having trouble visualising the situation:- There's a rounding park (to port), which as soon as the shorten course is signalled, it becomes the left hand end. Is that looking upwind or down wind? I'm reading the situation as a hook finish - if so, then there are other porblems. If that's wrong, then rule 18 applies, overlapped within 3 boat lengths, inside boat has right to mark room - unless the outside boat can't (not won't) give it.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 4:57pm
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Gave me a chuckle thinking about Lee boat cutting him off, prior to this the drag race would have been won by windard boat. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Bandin
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 5:11pm
Was previously the downwind 'leeward' mark so was a straight downwind finish.
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Posted By: Bandin
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 5:47pm
Even if the mark is one end of a start/finish?? you sure about that??
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 6:24pm
Why not? Rule 18. Mark room.
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Posted By: Bandin
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 6:36pm
You're not obliged to give room at the start.. are you at the finish? |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 6:38pm
Yes |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 6:43pm
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Bandin, were the boats running, reaching or beating? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Bandin
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 7:02pm
They were heading straight downwind to the finish |
Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 7:42pm
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Did it look something like that? Section C rules do not apply at a starting mark surrounded by
navigable water or at its anchor line from the time boats are
approaching them to start until they have passed them. No mention what so ever of it not applying at a finish, any big fleet race has tons of people screaming for room at the finish
 |
Posted By: Bandin
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 8:14pm
That's exactly the scenario Thank you
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 8:25pm
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Competitor B needs to inform the race office that he/she is retiring from the race, having broken a rule and not taken a penalty.
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 08 May 23 at 9:14pm
Yes.
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Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 8:57am
| Yes you do have to give room at the finish |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 8:58am
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I have read through all the links off this thread, finish line more ambiguous than the start line. I personally wouldn't cut someone off, but I probably wouldn't change course to let them through. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 9:13am
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There are very few ambiguities in the RRS.
Please quote one or more passages from the RRS that that you think may give rise to doubts that a mark designating an end of a finishing line is a mark at which rule 18 does not apply to boats finishing. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 12:04pm
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There doesn't appear to be a finish line specific paragraph, start line does. I haven't found a sentence saying finish line marks are the same as turn marks. The paragraph if it is written should say marks either end of the finish line are treated the same as turn marks, even a shortened finish. No ambiguity in that, but I have probably missed something and happy to be corrected. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 1:25pm
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Correct. There is no ambiguity.
Rule 18.1 says Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. followed by four exceptions, (a) to (d), which are irrelevant here. The Preamble to Section C then contains a further exception Section C rules do not apply at a starting mark surrounded by navigable water or at its anchor line from the time boats are approaching them to start until they have passed them. Rule 18 makes no distinction whether a mark is a 'turn' mark (whateverthat is), a rounding mark, a high mark, a low mark or any other sort of mark, as long as boats are required to leave it on the same side. So the only relevant exception is a starting mark surrounded by navigable water. A finishing mark is not a starting mark. An outside boat is required to give mark room in accordance with rule 18. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 1:59pm
It would be an unnecessary complication, and the rule writers are very keen to keep the rules as simple as possible. Its very tempting, when writing rules (which is a much harder rask than people think) to make them very specific, but the more specific they get the more chance there is of loopholes. So rather than listing different types of mark RRS 18 applies to every mark with the one specific exception of start marks surrounded by navigable water - and note the navigable water part - it still applies, for instance on start marks at the edge of a channel that you can't sail the wrong side of. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 2:04pm
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Makes sense put that way, all marks except start marks (with navigable water). By turn marks I meant rounding marks, (I was doing two things at once). ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 2:38pm
Probably not rule 18. That's probably going to be a continuing obstruction, so it's going to be rule 19. |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 3:22pm
If you wouldn't change course then you would cut them off by definition if they needed room. Yeeha .... cowboy ...  You have to give room at a finish mark just like you do at every other mark. The exception is the start mark which is detailed.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 5:32pm
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I wouldn't do anything, for the simple reason, I would never get in a position to have to give room at the mark. My opinion of boats that know they have to get to the finish line, is, they should get themselves in a position where they can get over, 'not' use the rules to force someone out of the way, causing them to lose a position that would have got 'them' over the line, could potentially have been a win. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Gfinch
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 6:18pm
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What happens if you hit the committee boat, which is one end of the line?
This happened a few years back, when I was beating to the finish line, cross-tacking with the leading boat on the final leg. During my final tack, there was a gust which made me heel more than anticipated and my mast touched the committee boat, but almost at the same time I crossed the line and received a finish. I then did a 360 turn, and it was decided that instead of 2nd place I should be awarded 3rd, as in the time it took for me to do a 360, had I been racing still, the boat behind might have caught up. ------------- 3513, 3551 - National 12 136069 - Laser 32541 - Mirror 4501 - Laser 4000 |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 6:33pm
You broke rule 31 Touching a Mark. You took a One Turn Penalty for breaking rule 31 which was the applicable penalty under rule 44.2. You took your penalty after you had crossed the finishing line, so that crossing of the finishing line didn't count as your finish. Definitions:Finish Finish A boat finishes when, after starting, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she (a) takes a penalty under rule 44.2 So strictly speaking you needed to get back on the course side and cross the finishing line again to finish. Irrelevant whether you touched the RCV just before or just after your bow crossed the line, you're still racing until you have cleared the finishing mark, and if you hit it you can't have cleared it. |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 7:09pm
A yacht is not required to leave a finishing 'mark' to a particular side, so how does R18 apply? Its not a Mark, in bold, as per the definitions. Is an object which defines the end of a finishing line actually an obstruction (if it's big enough!) so R19 applies?
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Posted By: Old bloke
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 7:42pm
| Ref 423zeros post. I have to disagree with that, even amongst friendly mates racing awareness of the rules, your "rights" (Brass will disagree with rights but I couldn't think of a better word) and otherwise are very much part of the game. Anything else is just a cruise in company |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 7:54pm
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I would have no respect for racers who deliberately aim to use the rules to force a win, if you are that keen aim for the middle and win on skill, not a barristers grasp of the rules. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 8:03pm
What do you expect to happen if there's a third boat? Am I entitled to alter course 'to be nice to someone' and in doing so disadvantage someone else?
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 8:15pm
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Eric I can categorically guarantee you, you would have no issues on the course from me. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 8:20pm
I do agree . Not that knowledge of the rules should ever used used to bully new or inexperienced sailors . At my tiny puddle we all have a reasonable knowledge of the rules because its so small if we didn’t, it would be utter carnage. After all if you don’t know the basic rules how do you know when someone has infringed you or if you have infringed someone else ?
------------- Duncan D-zero 315 |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 8:29pm
A race committe vessel which is one end of the finish line is within the definition of 'Mark' in bold. Mark An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified side, a race committee vessel surrounded by navigable water from which the starting or finishing line extends, and an object intentionally attached to the object or vessel. However, an anchor line is not part of the mark. You should have done your turn and re-crossed the line from the course side, then you would have finished.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 8:31pm
Maybe that's because references to definitions in the RRS are printed in italics. Introduction Terminology A term used in the sense stated in the Definitions is printed in italics Every reference to 'finishing mark' in the RRS has 'mark' italicised. Of course boats are required to leave finishing marks designating the port and starboard on those respective sides in order to finish and comply with rule 28.
If it's big enough, it's an obstruction, but, being a mark, unless it's a continuing obstruction, rule 18 and not rule 19 will apply. See rule 18.1(d). |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 9:14pm
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A boat is generally not required to leave the end of a finishing line to a particular side. It is specifically stated that once any part of the boat has crossed the line, a yacht is not required to fully cross the line after finishing. There is no way in plain English you can say a generic end of a finish line must be left on a particular side, unless the SIs require that. If the ends of a finish line were automatically 'marks' then the definition of 'mark' would not need to add the clause of a committee boat. If the end of a finsih line is a 'mark' then the definition of 'sailing the course would contradict the right to not fully cross the finish line. The rules are what the rules actually say, not any 'you know what they meant to say' /'spirit of the rules' mumbo jumbo. |
Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 09 May 23 at 10:02pm
What?
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Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 10 May 23 at 3:02am
How does one define "force a win"? Isn't a person who may be diving into a spot that the other person can (perfectly legally) hold them out of the one who is "forcing a win"? For many people, part of the joy of racing is the interplay of tactical positioning, which depends on using the rules. We love "chess on water". It's not "forcing a win" to use the rules any more than one is "forcing a win" to take your opponent's piece in a chess match. Where does "forcing a win" end? Is covering another sailor "forcing a win" or is it just part of the fun game we play? Personally I find that in the right place it's great fun, and so does everyone I know. If one is a more skilful sailor downwind and therefore causes your competitors to set a kite in a big breeze (risking a broach or capsize) aren't you "forcing" them to do something just as much as if you quietly say "windward boat keep clear please" at a mark in light winds? In many boats, there's actual some risk of physical danger (or danger to the bank account) in the previous scenario so why is that OK but a quiet use of the rules of the game not OK? My other sport is cycling, which is interesting because often the pros force their competitors to either blast down mountains at 90kmh, or drop out the back. The consequences of that "forcing" can be dire and yet it's lauded as part of the game. By the way, I've put in just one protest in my life (during my short-lived teams racing career), never been DSQd apart from getting the course wrong*, and normally try to sail fast and clean, but to me being "clean" includes not putting yourself in the wrong position under the rules of the game. * I didn't retire because there was an extra complication that an international jury took hours to decide
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 May 23 at 6:11am
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Racing is a brilliant pastime, something for everyone. My personal experience has been that most sailors race to win by skill.
Edited to add, gives the crew something to do, looking out for infringements, waterproof paper and pen, just incase. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 10 May 23 at 11:12am
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Using the rules IS a skill, just as much as any other part of sailing. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say anything to the contrary, outside of once or twice on this forum. Implying that there's no skill in using the rules at times would imply there's no skill in chess or other games where using the rules is such a part of the challenge. If a grandmaster uses the rules to put the king in mate, that's the use of skill. If a sailor uses the rules to hold someone out at a mark, that's also the use of skill. As noted earlier, I've only ever protested one person in my life (to decide a teams racing title when I got annoyed with someone breaking the P&S rule) and I'd say that the time the rules are used hardest seems to be when people are out playing around in totally informal fun races against mates, just for a laugh. It's not to be aggressive or to win, it's because it's such a fascinating extra layer of complication to throw over the rest of the sport. While many of the events I love personally don't really allow use or favour of the rules for close-quarter tactics, it's undeniably very skilful and in fact I'd say it dramatically increases the required skill level and reduces the emphasis on buying fast gear.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 May 23 at 12:14pm
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I agree with both your posts, nothing wrong with correcting rule breaking, especially if it gains them a win. I personally wouldn't put myself in a position to have to use a rule infringement to win a race, if in a very unlikely occurrence I was called out for rule breaking, even if I disagreed, I wouldn't dispute it. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 10 May 23 at 1:54pm
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There is no sport without rules; the whole business is an arbitrary construction to allow fair competition. I find it bizarre when people come over all offended when someone points out a rule infringement as if it is some kind of slur on their character. Know and respect the rules and play fair ... it is not hard. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 May 23 at 5:09pm
"A boat finishes when, after starting, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side." so, by definition, she must pass the port mark to port and the starboard mark to starboard or she can't both cross the line and have approached it from the course side.” When approaching the finish on a beam reach (as is common when back to back races are being held) the fastest route would usually be to windward of other boats, this usually means heading for the windward end of the line, maybe overlapped to windward of another boat.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 10 May 23 at 7:52pm
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Cannot see the song and dance about the original post. If the windward boat has an overlap how can they not have rights? Using the rules yes of course it is sporting and fine in a single race, although I do get a bit ticked off by people who luff you purely for the sake of it but rules is rules and that's what I signed up for. There has been some legal but questionable ethics in the past over a series were faster boats in top placings have sacrificed a race to sail a slower boat down the order. But then again if it's legal and those concerned can resolve it................ Edit Add. The rules I think do work more fairly, my word, in class racing. In a diverse handicap fleet things can sometimes become a little more questionable as regards to what some might see as good manners.
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 10 May 23 at 10:50pm
You sit on someone's wind, then whine when they legitimately luff you? You could always try overtaking to leeward, or far enough away not to affect the other boat.
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 11 May 23 at 5:54am
| Whoa there eric steady. Not what I said at all; you've connected two separate points. Two boats the same class, I'm not whining or sitting ahead on somebody's wind, all I'm saying is nobody wins in luffing apart the boats clear ahead getting away and those behind. As regards good manners ; if passing a slower boat in a handicap fleet I always go below or well clear above. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 May 23 at 9:07am
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Use of rules is clearly a personal approach, I wouldn't join a club with lots of rule book sailors. I prefer a more relaxed club, plus, I go out of my way to avoid on the water issues.
If the first point of the boat to cross the line gives you the win, say the end of the bow sprit, then boat hull touches the mark, is it a rule infringement? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 11 May 23 at 10:15am
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One of the advantages of having a number of dinghy sailors well versed in the rules is that I find that their dinghy course and actions are far more predictable than someone who doesn't know as much. Obviously, anyone not completely au fait with the rules is still welcome, but we need to keep more attention on them. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 May 23 at 12:00pm
You finish when the first part of the hull crosses the line not bow sprit or any other part (this changed in the last RRS update) but you are still racing until you have cleared the line so, yes, it is a rule infringement.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 May 23 at 12:10pm
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Got it, just reread your post on page 5, was confused by a post stating any fixed part of the boat. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 11 May 23 at 3:29pm
I don't think there are any clubs with "rule book" sailors ... but there are a lot of sailors who seems to have no idea of the rules. I suspect these people create more chaos on the water than those that are perceived to be rule bashers ... then they just moan that others are rule bashers where as actually the main issue is their ignorance.
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 11 May 23 at 4:00pm
| Completely agree regarding observing rules and taking rights for the avoidance of misunderstandings in tight situations. |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 11 May 23 at 4:24pm
That’s been my experience too. It’s a lot less stressful and a lot easier to race with people that have grasped the basic rules . As you can concentrate more on tactics and boat speed . ( But it’s still most important not to ever be ‘ shouty ‘ to new or inexperienced sailors and to help them understand the rules ) ------------- Duncan D-zero 315 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 May 23 at 5:17pm
You can just picture it  tiller in one hand, main sheet in the other and a rule book in the other  no problem getting jumpers though, I have one, it's ok, just the one sleeve is a bit longer than the other two ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 11 May 23 at 7:43pm
| Basic principles of the rules are sufficient for safe and predictable racing, coupled of course with a degree of anticipation and foresight. |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 12 May 23 at 6:24am
I agree. The rules do not require anticipation, but I find it is generally a faster way around the course if I do anticipate what others might do, especially on a small pond. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 12 May 23 at 9:56am
Totally agree too with both posts. Isn’t that just what 99% of us are doing every time we race . ------------- Duncan D-zero 315 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 12 May 23 at 10:08am
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Two boats beating, about five lengths apart, wind force four gusting to over five, so both going fast. Third boat on a fast reach passes between the two boats (90 degrees), causing chasing boat to swerve violently and capsize. No warnings shouted. (beating boats both on starboard, crossing boat on port). What should have happened ? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 12 May 23 at 10:15am
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If the swerve was to avoid a collision then Port is plainly in the wrong and should be protested or retire. If, however, the swerve and capsize was due to the wind shadow of the reaching boat then no foul. As I have found, to my cost recently, light boats react much more to wake and wind shadow than heavier craft 😱 ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 May 23 at 10:34am
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Agree with Noah. If S took avoiding action Port is in the wrong. If S was caught by surprise by wind shadow, didn't swerve deliberately and there was never any risk of a collision P is in the clear.
Case 50 in the Case book is relevant. "When a protest committee finds that in a port-starboard incident S did not change course and that there was not a genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision on the part of S, it should dismiss her protest. When the committee finds that S did change course and that there was reasonable doubt that P could have crossed ahead of S if S had not changed course, then P should be disqualified." |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 12 May 23 at 10:44am
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Never thought about wind shadow, hiked out in strong wind and a complete drop in wind, that is quite amusing when you think about it. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 12 May 23 at 5:26pm
Yes, very true. Bearing in mind the vaguaries of the ******** system anyway, a regular club race really doesn't warrant an OCD approach to rules. A few basics and a fair minded approach. |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 13 May 23 at 9:02am
It's actually a major problem at times in big boats; for example years ago the world IOR maxi champ had a 3/4 tonner bob upright in its wind shadow as they crossed tacks. About 35 tonnes of 82' IOR boat went charging upwind at a rate of knots with its main boom topping lift wrapped around the masthead of the 3/4 tonner, dragging it sideways on its ear. At least there was no lasting damage, whereas at other times little boats popping upright have shoved their mastheads through the expensive big-boat sails. Serves the big bullies right!
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Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 17 May 23 at 10:01am
Really? When you are in a race, there’s no requirement to anticipate colliding with another boat? More specifically, there is no requirement for a give way boat to anticipate having to keep clear of a right of way boat? Is that right? ------------- Steve |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 May 23 at 10:55am
| The rules don't require you to guess what another boat might do differently. They do require you to be aware of what its currently doing. So you do need to allow for a right of way boat continuing on the same course and speed. You don't need to anticipate it suddenly changing direction for no obvious reason. |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 17 May 23 at 1:13pm
Thanks for your explanation. Thinking of rule 11 and pre start ( windward boat keeps clear) . What happens if the leeward boat sailing a little higher gains an overlap from behind but the windward boat takes no action to keep clear until the boats are close together and then “time and opportunity” is the defence by the windward boat? Is the leeward boat in wrong? ------------- Steve |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 17 May 23 at 3:00pm
There's no such thing as 'time and oportunity'. 'Room and opportunity' was deleted from the RRS in 1995. What W is entitled to is room to keep clear in accordance with rule 15, which says ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear ... Room is defined as Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, ... while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way. So before the boats become overlapped, W is clear ahead right of way boat and is required by the rules to do absolutely nothing to anticipate that she will shortly become the windward give way boat. Depending on the performance of the boats, however it may be smart for to do so, but that's not a rules obligation. The moment boats become overlapped, W may need to begin taking action to keep clear of L. Maybe in your terms her 'opportunity' begins at the beginning of the overlap. If there was initially enough room between boats when the overlap began for W to take action to keep clear of L, then L has given W the room to keep clear that she is entitled to. |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 17 May 23 at 3:06pm
Obviously it's not right. CASE 27 says A boat is not required to anticipate that another boat will break a rule. That's the only thing that says a boat is not required to anticipate. So, yes, a give way boat has quite a bit of anticipating to do. |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 17 May 23 at 7:30pm
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Definition of 'keep clear'. Keep Clear A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat (a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and, (b) when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately making contact. So you don't exactly have to anticipate, you need to stay far enough away to sail reactively and not hit the right of way boat.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 17 May 23 at 7:57pm
| I don't want to play around with words too much, but to me 'stay far enough away' means anticipate. |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 17 May 23 at 9:30pm
Thanks. If W is crafty, say sitting just below the start line creeping forward ahead of the start signal, W could decide not to start to take action to avoid L who is slowly approaching from behind and the gap will close then W can claim insufficient room to keep clear. L goes from the right of way boat to being the infringer because “room” is a universal defence if L decides to protest. Without an umpire, I would think the “room” defence trumps L’s argument of W rule breaking. I wonder if it is possible to abuse the racing rules using techniques like these and indeed maybe these techniques are taught. ------------- Steve |
Posted By: Old bloke
Date Posted: 18 May 23 at 4:54am
| In the real world, if you are windward boat you have to convince the protest committee that you were unable to keep clear. Good luck with that unless you have good independent witnesses. |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 18 May 23 at 8:24am
Until the overlap happens, L (clear astern) is the keep clear boat. If L establishes the overlap too close, they've failed to keep clear. Of course on a real start line there may be a dozen more boats and inter-twining obligations to keep clear of one another...
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 May 23 at 11:57am
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Simplify the finish line rules, if you are sailing at 90 degrees to the line and have been for more than three boat lengths no one can call water on you. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 18 May 23 at 12:57pm
Whether or not and how to respond will depend on time to go, distance from the start line and other tactical considerations. Doing nothing when tactically attacked is very rarely the best option. W can see the hook coming: from a rules POV, she has no obligation to do anything until boats become overlapped, then she must keep clear, but tactically, she'd better start doing something.
Room to keep clear under rules 15/16 is nothing like a 'universal defence'. L can't just 'claim' insufficient room to keep clear. She has to prove to the protest committee that there was insufficient space for her acting promptly and in a seamanlike way to keep clear. In dinghys and moderate conditions .6 to 1 m between the boats when they became overlapped would be considered more than enough room for W to begin to keep clear. If L got the hook closer than this, she can readily do a 'tag and release': immediatedly boats become overlapped, L bears away and accelerates, opens the gap to give W room, then comes back up towards the wind requiring W to keep clear, and from the moment it was possible to do so, W had better be doing all she could to keep clear. If L is just the little bit competent, W is on a hiding to nothing.
Why? Depends on the evidence, and I think you are vastly overestimating the force of rules 15/16.
No. Unless a boat breaks the rules it is impossible to 'abuse' the rules. |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 18 May 23 at 1:10pm
Yes
No. Once the boats become overlapped, L is required initially to give W room to keep clear (rule 15), but the instant they become overlapped, L becomes the right of way boat so she has no obligation to keep clear. If you were thinking that the instant just before the overlap L, still the keep clear boat, must have been so close that she was not keeping clear, I don't think that's a good approach. Consider the definition of keep clear Keep Clear A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat (a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and, (b) when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately making contact. Immediately before the overlap: * W can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action: she can change course to port or starboard. * (b) does not apply because boats are not yet overlapped. Practically speaking, for a boat to break rule 12, there just about always has to be a bow to transom shunt. |