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Latest legal Laser tweaks????
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by blaze720

.....and not the product of anyone being brainwashed.

eeerm .... Yes good conditoning is very plausible such that even otherwise reasonable people accept what they are repeatedly told is 'normal' and develop a rationale for it -  the entire point being made by the prosecution me Lord  LOL

Come along  ...  'Laser' have had decades to address the issues and missed some great evolution opportunities as well ...  all thats going to be left in a few years is the unflinching 'convinced' who would march out of the trenches without query into machine gun fire.  We are not talking about turbo charging the boat, it is not about speed, it is about addressing the deficiencies that cost Laser a lot of general mid-fleet customers.   Henry Ford liked to keep things the same as well ... but even he evolved the model 'T' when needed.  

Mike L.

That's a ridiculous thing to say, Mike. Do you always deride those who happen to have different preferences from you?

As I noted, I would like the Laser to change in some ways. I personally also enjoy competing in new classes (and did yet another inaugural championship in a new discipline a couple of seaosns ago). Does that mean that one should sling insults at those who have different beliefs?

Yes, Henry Ford changed the Model T - but you have not changed the antiquated basic design of the Blaze and I have not heard from any Laser sailor hear criticising you for that. Lots of things have not changed much; Stradivarius violins, sunsets, whisky, the sound of a singer in perfect pitch, purebred border collies. The fact that things don't change is not a problem per se. Using the Model T analogy is like saying that One Direction must be better than the Beatles, Beethoven or Joy Division because they are newer.

Yes, in a perfect world the Laser mainsheet would not catch its corners - but in that same world the Blaze would (for me) not be so fat, it would be vastly lighter, not have the same sail. I don't think that I, or any other Laser sailors, have abused that chunky and heavy boat you build so why not treat our boat with the same respect?

In another person's perfect world the Blaze and Laser would both be replaced by foilers. So why not accept that your desires are not the only valid ones, and that those who would not like the Laser to change (and I am not numbered among them) have a right to feel that way without those who put lipstick on fat pigs slinging cr*p at them from the sidelines?


Edited by Chris 249 - 18 Jun 14 at 12:32pm
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

 I don't know who buys Lasers in the UK, but in my experience it's not squaddies but experienced mature professionals who have sailed a large range of other classes (FDs to Olympic level, Solings, Tasars, junior Cherubs and 18 Foot Skiffs to world title victories, 420s, etc) who regularly buy new boats. Some people may have the staggering arrogance to claim that multiple world champs in loose OD classes and development classes, who also have sometimes outstanding professional careers, are "brainwashed", but a more reasonable and logical view would be that they are extremely knowledgeable and experienced people who find that the class as it is suits their needs and desires.

quite right, I have neglected to think of the Laser masters stuff.... they are all purchased for similar reasons.  I don't see the point of dashing off to check attendance stats, I genuinely assume they are as strong as ever, and probably reflect a more comparable demographic.

as for the brainwashing comments from Mike, I took that as a nuance towards the SMOD mentality and desire to timestamp development, rather than the Laser per say.  But I'm sure he's capable of defending his choice of words better than me.
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 12:12pm
IMO most new Lasers are either club level guys who want to treat themselves every now and then or people who regularly do the Open circuit. The top guys generally have their boats funded so you cannot really count them. The rest are sailing centres, quite a few have fleets of Lasers that are renewed on a regular basis.

I bought a brand new Laser some 10 years ago or so.

Having said that there have been no 'brand new' boats at Hunts for quite some time (the guy who works for LP excepted as his is a works boat).
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by iiitick

To go back to the car analogy. How about if the 'governing body' of international motor sport would only support participation with 1980's cars? Club sailors can vote with their feet which is why our club has 14 Supernovas and only 2 Lasers. Looking at a youth sailing event recently all the kids with stars in their eyes sail Laser......whether they like it or not.

Talking to Supernova sailors at our recent open. They agree that the new epoxy boats are much quicker but are philsophical about it and realise that the boat needs to be right before it goes any further. Laser never corrected its deficiencies and presumably never will. Fine, let addicted Laser sailors sail them, it is a free country. What I object to is that they are promoted as the pinnacle of single handed sailing.....they must be, Olympic boat and all that.

With the introduction of these new modern boats, as well as Nova's, Bytes etc. I can see the decline of Laser as club steeds while they continue isolated at international level. 

Remember those front engined Indycars that got whipped by a mid engined Lotus?

The governing body of our sport supports participation in many different classes, all the way to Olympic level where people can sail Nacra 17s, 49ers, etc. Most of them are unpopular so obviously that is not the reason why the Laser is popular among "the addicts". 

No one claims that 470s are promoted as "the pinnacle of double handed sailing" yet they are Olympic - and almost dead in most countries at club level as are most Olympic classes. There seems to be a complete disconnect between the fact that most Olympic classes are struggling for numbers (and many squad classes) and the claims that Lasers depend on their Olympic and squad membership for their numbers. 

Finally, in most English-speaking countries motor racing is (despite enormous amounts of money thrown at it by its enormous parent industry) comparatively weak in terms of participation. In the UK motor racing is something like 3.5% as effective as sailing in terms of participation for money spent; that is, it takes 30 times as many sponsorship/industry dollars as sailing to attract each participant.

Given those facts, surely it's reasonable to say that the motor racing path may be the wrong one to follow and the sailing path the right one.







Edited by Chris 249 - 18 Jun 14 at 12:25pm
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 12:22pm
I don't think I've ever seen a customer purchased brand new Laser, ever. But that hasn't stopped folk turfing up at our club with varying ages of late low mileage models, we even have folk that keep two, one for the Sea and one for the Lake.

One thing that did perk my interest, that foiling set up, has anyone seen that live in the flesh anywhere?

It did seem rather a lot of money for a couple of foils and a twist grip, but then isn't everything these days.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 12:26pm
I also have probably missed what happened or maybe it just didn't, but Kirby Torch? Did it flare bright for a few months then die or did it get momentum?
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Double post, apologies


Edited by Chris 249 - 18 Jun 14 at 12:32pm
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by iGRF


One thing that did perk my interest, that foiling set up, has anyone seen that live in the flesh anywhere?
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by Chris 249


Originally posted by iGRF

One thing that did perk my interest, that foiling set up, has anyone seen that live in the flesh anywhere?

Yes


Care to share that experience if I promise not to be rude to you about it?

I had a good look at it at the dinghy show, but there's been nothing newsy since, it's been looked after by a retailer here and other than taking money if you want one they are not that brilliant at promoting by demonstration which the bod over from Aus was at least doing the best he could do on a static display.

Edited by iGRF - 18 Jun 14 at 12:48pm
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Posts: 478 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 14 at 2:19pm
One thing skewing the Olympic boat participation figures is probably the noticeable lack of double handed sailing these days. I suppose we have to represent all sorts of sailing at the Olympics and that means including oddities like the 470 or Star...we don't have that now do we? At the Ovington Inlands a couple of years ago there where forty odd 29ers and certainly more than 20 49ers. I am sure those 29 kids dream of 49ers.

What we do sail in this country at least, is mono rigged single handers. Some of them are very nice modern designs, so we represent them at the pinnacle of sporting events with an ancient design which is no longer representative for the average sailor.
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